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How Many Un-Insured Are There?

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miamiair (netAirspace FAA) 24 Jun 09, 17:17Post
Congressional debate over health care hinges on numbers projected a decade forward to make sure the plan can be paid for. But it's hard enough pinning down today's numbers.

The Census Bureau estimates that the number of uninsured amounts to 45.7 million people. But the agency might be overcounting by millions due to faulty assumptions. Another problem: That 45.7 million figure includes undocumented immigrants, even though they aren't likely to be covered under new laws.

But that hasn't stopped both parties in Congress from using the flawed numbers liberally, as they debate health-care overhaul this summer. That's a reprise of what happened 15 years ago, when the Clinton health plan foundered under differing cost estimates wielded by opponents. But such projections are even more uncertain than today's fuzzy count of the uninsured, depending on tricky assumptions about people's economic choices.

"There is a range of uncertainty in health legislation that probably exceeds that of most other issues before Congress," says Robert D. Reischauer, who headed the Congressional Budget Office when it was analyzing the Clinton health plan.

These sorts of numbers made headlines last week when the CBO dealt a blow to a bill introduced by Sen. Edward Kennedy. The congressional budget watchdog, which relied in part on the 45.7 million uninsured number, said the bill would cost $1 trillion over 10 years, and reduce the number of uninsured Americans by just 17 million, leaving tens of millions of people without coverage.

But the CBO was evaluating just one piece of a larger proposal. For one thing, it omitted a proposed expansion of Medicaid, which would have reduced the number of uninsured further. "They didn't model his whole plan," says Jonathan Gruber, an economist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

The committee's Democrats sought the analysis to respond to Republicans' protests that they were being asked to debate and mark up a bill without cost estimates. "The best guess is there was some sort of crossed wire" between the CBO and the committee, according to Paul Van de Water, senior fellow at the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. He thinks the committee expected an analysis that would make certain assumptions about the complete bill. These numbers have weighty political consequences -- both the $1 trillion cost projection of the Kennedy plan and a larger estimate for a different Democratic plan sent lawmakers back to the drafting board last week in search of cost cuts.

Clouding future projections of uninsured are tricky methods of counting them today. Even though legislation won't cover many of them, illegal immigrants are especially difficult to enumerate: Few raise their hands to be counted. Prof. Gruber estimates they make up about 13% of the uninsured today, or nearly six million people of that 45 million number.

Of the rest, some people are eligible for health insurance but don't know it and many can afford it but don't want it. About 43% of uninsured nonelderly adults have incomes greater than 2.5 times the poverty level, according to a report released Tuesday by the business-backed Employment Policies Institute.

Meanwhile, Census's state-by-state counts of the uninsured tend to be much higher than state surveys, which have their own flaws. For instance, some don't reach people without landline phones.

The national agency assumes that people who don't answer its health-care questions are much more likely to be uninsured. But that overstates the number of those without coverage, according to Michael Davern, an assistant professor at the University of Minnesota's public health school, who has been studying the discrepancy under a contract with the Census Bureau. To adjust for that overestimate, he recommends that Census adjust its national count of uninsured people downward by 2.5 million. The agency is still considering whether to implement that change.

These misaligned numbers had very real consequences for Massachusetts as it implemented its health-care overhaul three years ago. State surveys indicated there were about 400,000 uninsured people; Census put the figure closer to 650,000.

While Census tends to shoot too high, state surveys can undershoot. "In hindsight it's clear that the higher number was closer to the right number," says Dick Powers, spokesman for the state's Connector Authority, which manages the new health-care choices. The greater-than-expected demand drove costs higher than projections this fiscal year and last.

Given these uncertainties, it's no surprise that projections involve some guesswork. Mr. Reischauer, the former CBO chief who is now president of think tank Urban Institute, says of his former agency's staffers, "They're paid to be straight shooters, and they are." However, he adds that projections "depend on 30 other assumptions. [Some of] those 30 assumptions are going to turn out to be wrong."

In 1993, the agency estimated that health-care costs' share of GDP would rise to 18.9% by 2000. Instead the rate held steady at around 13% for the rest of the decade. "That turned out to be horrendously wrong," Mr. Reischauer says.

The CBO spent five years preparing for its outsize role as a scorekeeper in the health-care debate this time around, working on what it calls a micro-simulation of the health-insurance market. This program models the current state of coverage and the options available to consumers and employers. Analysts then input changes in these conditions, such as government subsidies or penalties for those without insurance, to project the effect of proposed legislation.

The models are based on economic analyses of prior changes in health-care policy and related research. Some of it is well-founded, say researchers who have created their own models and advised the CBO. Other areas, such as the impact of taxing employee health benefits, are more like guesswork, says Elizabeth McGlynn, associate director of RAND Health.

One way costs may be overestimated by the CBO is in judging provisions seeking to end unnecessary and expensive medical procedures. It may be low-balling cost savings, Prof. Gruber says of the CBO.

But others think caution about savings from efficiency gains is warranted. Eugene Steuerle, vice president of the Peter G. Peterson Foundation, an anti-deficit group, points out that every improvement in medical care, such as a cure that could extend life, could lead to more costs.

The biggest uncertainty may be the reaction of employers to a new government plan. The Massachusetts experience isn't explicitly incorporated in the CBO model, but provides insight. Government subsidies pushed some employers to drop their own coverage, but the state's penalties for failing to obtain coverage had the opposite effect. Prof. Gruber notes that, contrary to expectations, employer-provided health insurance rose in Massachusetts.

Such a surprising result "is a somewhat humbling experience in modeling work," Prof. Gruber says. Though one can embrace the flaws: "The nice thing about these models being living entities is, you can update them as you learn more."

Article


The estimate of 46 million uninsured, which comes from a less-than-ideal government survey, has been the occasion of a fraud on the public. For 20 years, the Church of Universal Coverage told us that 40-some million Americans are uninsured for the entire year. Then, experts including the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office said that no, 40-some million is the number who are uninsured on any given day, and a lot of those people quickly regain coverage. The number of Americans who are uninsured for the entire year is actually 20-30 million. Yet the Church of Universal Coverage kept using that 40-some million estimate as if nothing had happened – even though the meaning of that estimate had completely changed.

The Congressional Budget Office also reports that as many as 15 percent of those 20-30 million chronically “uninsured” are eligible for government programs, so they’re effectively insured.

According to economists Mark Pauly of the University of Pennsylvania and Kate Bundorf of Stanford, as many as three-quarters of the uninsured could afford coverage but choose not to purchase it. Again, according to the Congressional Budget Office, 60 percent of the uninsured are under age 35, and 86 percent are in good-to-excellent health.

Government intervention has made health insurance unnecessarily expensive for them, so these folks quite sensibly don’t want to be ripped off. Mandating that they buy coverage is really about hunting them down and taxing them.
And let's get one thing straight. There's a big difference between a pilot and an aviator. One is a technician; the other is an artist in love with flight. — E. B. Jeppesen
Mark 24 Jun 09, 17:31Post
A few days ago, I asked the head of accounts receivable at my local hospital and clinic for a rough percentage of patients who don't have insurance. Trudy and I go back many years; I used to work with her. Now, there aren't many illegals in this neck of the woods. The ones we get tend not to stick around very long. Anyway, her answer was "about 10%."
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miamiair (netAirspace FAA) 24 Jun 09, 17:32Post
If we use your numbers, that is about 30 million.
And let's get one thing straight. There's a big difference between a pilot and an aviator. One is a technician; the other is an artist in love with flight. — E. B. Jeppesen
Mark 24 Jun 09, 17:43Post
And that makes sense. Add in the illegals and you get the Census figure.
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miamiair (netAirspace FAA) 24 Jun 09, 17:57Post
Shouldn't be paying for them, should we?
And let's get one thing straight. There's a big difference between a pilot and an aviator. One is a technician; the other is an artist in love with flight. — E. B. Jeppesen
GQfluffy (Database Editor & Founding Member) 24 Jun 09, 17:59Post
Shall I raise my hand?
Teller of no, fixer of everything, friend of the unimportant and all around good guy; the CAD Monkey
Mark 24 Jun 09, 18:13Post
miamiair wrote:Shouldn't be paying for them, should we?


There has to be some sort of coverage for them. The political side of me says no, but the human rights part of me says yes. If an illegal gets hit by a car, do we just let them lie in the street? Or if the son of an illegal gets appendicitis, do we just let him die of peritonitis in a back alley?
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miamiair (netAirspace FAA) 24 Jun 09, 18:18Post
They are not contributing to their own care, but utilizing the resources that have been paid for by tax payers. No tickee, no laundree; it can't be both ways.
And let's get one thing straight. There's a big difference between a pilot and an aviator. One is a technician; the other is an artist in love with flight. — E. B. Jeppesen
Airfoilsguy (Founding Member) 24 Jun 09, 18:27Post
Many people chose not to be insured as well. They would rather make ridicules payments on their "rent to own" plasma TV then put the money toward insurance. These are the same people that will tell you they can't afford health insurance.
GQfluffy (Database Editor & Founding Member) 24 Jun 09, 18:44Post
Just to clarify...

I'm uninsured because I choose to be. I moved out here with the s/o without a guaranteed job. Stupid? Possibly, but I have to live with that. Sure we could go get eloped tomorrow and I could be covered by her insurance, but that's not the right thing. So...for now...I deal with it. I'm not asking for any handout, I'm not bitching about my situation, I just deal with it. Sure I'd love to have universal "free" health care, but the way it's being forced down our throats is wrong.
Teller of no, fixer of everything, friend of the unimportant and all around good guy; the CAD Monkey
Boris (Founding Member) 24 Jun 09, 18:44Post
Mark wrote:
miamiair wrote:Shouldn't be paying for them, should we?


There has to be some sort of coverage for them. The political side of me says no, but the human rights part of me says yes. If an illegal gets hit by a car, do we just let them lie in the street?


No, move them to the gutter so nobody else messes up their car... {bugeye}

Mark wrote:Or if the son of an illegal gets appendicitis, do we just let him die of peritonitis in a back alley?
'

Seriously, with EMTALA both of your "patients" would already be treated courtesy of those who are paying for insurance...

Providers build the cost of no-pays into the rates the people that actually pay are charged...
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers...
Airfoilsguy (Founding Member) 24 Jun 09, 19:01Post
GQfluffy wrote:Just to clarify...

I'm uninsured because I choose to be. I moved out here with the s/o without a guaranteed job. Stupid? Possibly, but I have to live with that. Sure we could go get eloped tomorrow and I could be covered by her insurance, but that's not the right thing. So...for now...I deal with it. I'm not asking for any handout, I'm not bitching about my situation, I just deal with it. Sure I'd love to have universal "free" health care, but the way it's being forced down our throats is wrong.


Just to clarify myself...

My comment was not directed at you or anyone else here. My comment was more in line of what I see other people doing outside of our membership. :)
GQfluffy (Database Editor & Founding Member) 24 Jun 09, 19:06Post
AFG- I didn't think you were pointing at me...I just reread what I had posted and figured maybe I should've given more information...
Teller of no, fixer of everything, friend of the unimportant and all around good guy; the CAD Monkey
ShyFlyer (Founding Member) 25 Jun 09, 05:20Post
GQfluffy wrote:Shall I raise my hand?

I'll raise mine if you raise yours. :)

Yeah, uninsured here too. {grumpy}
Make Orwell fiction again.
minuteman (Certified Expert - A320) 25 Jun 09, 07:19Post
Here's a question:

Should the state take responsibility in the health of its own citizens? Or to put it a slightly different way, does the state have a responsibility to provide healthcare to it citizens otherwise is it being neglectful?

Not everyone owns a car but we all pay for the roads....
Boris (Founding Member) 25 Jun 09, 10:53Post
minuteman wrote:Here's a question:

Should the state take responsibility in the health of its own citizens? Or to put it a slightly different way, does the state have a responsibility to provide healthcare to it citizens otherwise is it being neglectful?

Not everyone owns a car but we all pay for the roads....


About the half the people in the US don't pay income tax, so they're not contributing to any federal highway money. Each State has its own revenue/funding system, so it's hard to make a blanket statement as to whether all contribute. There are however, gas taxes where I live that are specifically intended for roads. If you have no car, you won't be paying too much in those taxes. Florida also has a lot of toll roads, which are paid entirely by the users...
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers...
minuteman (Certified Expert - A320) 25 Jun 09, 13:23Post
Boris wrote:About the half the people in the US don't pay income tax, so they're not contributing to any federal highway money. Each State has its own revenue/funding system, so it's hard to make a blanket statement as to whether all contribute. There are however, gas taxes where I live that are specifically intended for roads. If you have no car, you won't be paying too much in those taxes. Florida also has a lot of toll roads, which are paid entirely by the users...


Yep I take that all on board, but I wonder if state sales tax income aren't diverted at some level into infrastructural funds.? (I have no idea if it is the case.) We here pay tax all centrally so at some stage some of anyone's tax euros could well end up paying for a road somewhere.

Anyway, the upshot of having a poorly implemented "universal" system is that the system can be so bad, individuals end up forking out money for private health insurance anyway (like here in Ireland.) So in effect, I pay tax for a system I rarely use but I fork out extra cash to ensure that I get "preferential" treatment...question is, would I (for a tax increase of some sort) pay for a decent public health system available to everyone? Probably. Would I still fork out extra to ensure that my family members get treated sooner and better than others? Of course I would.

Do we absolve the state from responsibility of the public's health?
miamiair (netAirspace FAA) 25 Jun 09, 13:30Post
minuteman wrote:
Yep I take that all on board, but I wonder if state sales tax income aren't diverted at some level into infrastructural funds.? (I have no idea if it is the case.) We here pay tax all centrally so at some stage some of anyone's tax euros could well end up paying for a road somewhere.

Do we absolve the state from responsibility of the public's health?


Here in Miami-Dade-County, we pay a penny additional sales tax to cover the county's public hospital.

Does the health care system need an overhaul? Yes it does.

Is the plan the government is proposing for us the best option to us? No, it is not.

I think based on Boris' work with the healthcare industry, he would be better qualified to offer opinions than I am.
And let's get one thing straight. There's a big difference between a pilot and an aviator. One is a technician; the other is an artist in love with flight. — E. B. Jeppesen
Fumanchewd 25 Jun 09, 20:21Post
Haven't had insurance for about a year and a half. I have a few medical issues I hope can wait until I find a decent job.

I guess its my own fault. I've been looking for a decent job for quite awhile now. I'm currently working as a 1099 making less than $1000 bucks a month and just can't afford it. I suppose I could get a job at Walmart on graveyard to pay for my insurance, but I'd rather die uninsured.

I don't mind paying for insurance, but I hate the fact that the system is so inefficient and prices on everything are so overinflated just because they can.
"Give us a kiss, big tits."
Mark 25 Jun 09, 20:41Post
I haven't had insurance for about two years. I tried to get Wisconsin Medical Assistance with my PTSD diagnosis, but didn't meet enough criteria to qualify. I've been lucky that I haven't gotten really sick. I've made a lot of changes to my routine to lower the chance of injury. I parked the scooter and think twice before doing risky things like climbing ladders and operating tools and machinery. I've also done things like changing my diet to eat healthier and to get a flu shot every year.
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Fumanchewd 25 Jun 09, 20:53Post
Did you ever get that job that you were talking about a few months back?
"Give us a kiss, big tits."
Mark 25 Jun 09, 21:08Post
Fumanchewd wrote:Did you ever get that job that you were talking about a few months back?


Nope. They wanted someone specifically with clinic management experience. I've got management experience, but not in that particular area.
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Fumanchewd 25 Jun 09, 21:30Post
Sorry to hear that. Hang in there, it will come.

I'm thinking of opening a car wash employing out of work men in hot pants if you want to get aboard. Kind of like The Full Monty. ;)
"Give us a kiss, big tits."
 

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