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bin Laden Raid’s Mystery Copter

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Boris (Founding Member) 04 May 11, 22:43Post
Interesting speculation about the chopper that was left behind being a secret stealth model...

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/05 ... pter/all/1

Image
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers...
Lucas (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 05 May 11, 01:40Post
When I first saw the pics about 10 minutes ago, I thought, "Wow, I must not know my helicopters, because that's not what I'd heard had crashed."
CO777ER (Database Editor & Founding Member) 05 May 11, 02:43Post
I bet China has some operatives taking a look at it as we speak. (or already have)
Queso (netAirspace ATC Tower Chief & Founding Member) 05 May 11, 03:04Post
CO777ER wrote:I bet China has some operatives taking a look at it as we speak. (or already have)

Yeah, and a quarter-century from now we'll see a poor copy of it.
Slider... <sniff, sniff>... you stink.
GQfluffy (Database Editor & Founding Member) 05 May 11, 16:05Post
I find it very surprising (and a pleasant surprise at that), that our military had this chopper under wraps for this long. {thumbsup}
Teller of no, fixer of everything, friend of the unimportant and all around good guy; the CAD Monkey
ORFflyer (Founding Member) 05 May 11, 17:03Post
GQfluffy wrote:I find it very surprising (and a pleasant surprise at that), that our military had this chopper under wraps for this long.


Agreed - today's paper, in a story written by a writer with the Army Times says we've had that in development since the 80's, using the AH-6 "Little Bird" helicopter.
Rack-em'. I'm getting a beer.
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 05 May 11, 17:07Post
Seems to have some reliability issues, though... ;)
Ideology: The mistaken belief that your beliefs are neither beliefs nor mistaken.
Queso (netAirspace ATC Tower Chief & Founding Member) 05 May 11, 17:15Post
Zak wrote:Seems to have some reliability issues, though... ;)

Vortex ring state is not a reliability issue, it's an inherent risk when flying rotary-wing aircraft in certain situations.
Slider... <sniff, sniff>... you stink.
bhmbaglock 05 May 11, 18:25Post
Queso wrote:
Zak wrote:Seems to have some reliability issues, though... ;)

Vortex ring state is not a reliability issue, it's an inherent risk when flying rotary-wing aircraft in certain situations.


Yes, not limited to V-22 as some believe.
Airfoilsguy (Founding Member) 05 May 11, 21:20Post
I looked it up, interesting.

AndesSMF (Founding Member) 05 May 11, 21:50Post
Do I understand this enough to state that at a certain point no recovery is possible?
Einstein said two things were infinite; the universe, and stupidity. He wasn't sure about the first, but he was certain about the second.
Queso (netAirspace ATC Tower Chief & Founding Member) 06 May 11, 02:36Post
AndesSMF wrote:Do I understand this enough to state that at a certain point no recovery is possible?

At low altitudes, yes. At higher altitudes, the horizontal tail and dynamic stability of the fuselage as it descends will force the rotor disk to some kind of angle of attack and the ring state will be broken, thereby allowing recovery.

EXCELLENT book if you're interested in helicopter flight dynamics, I have a copy and have read it a couple of times. Very technical.

Image
Slider... <sniff, sniff>... you stink.
miamiair (netAirspace FAA) 09 May 11, 09:39Post
Some light on the subject.

Via E-Mail:

Photography of U.S. military technology left behind in the May 1 raid against Osama bin Laden shows that previously unseen stealth-like enhancements to rotorcraft played a critical role in the mission to take down the Al Qaeda leader.

The Aviation Week analysis, made shortly after the Abbottabad, Pakistan, operation, proves that the potential to capture or kill the 9/11 mastermind was important enough to U.S. leaders to risk the lives of at least two dozen of the most highly trained U.S. special operators. In addition, the raid would have been a major international embarrassment for Washington if something went wrong and might have exposed cutting-edge military and intelligence technology.

In the end, only the exposure of technology might have occurred—and even then, the otherwise highly successful operation still has left tantalizingly few, albeit significant, new clues to military advancements.

According to widely published photographs from Abbottabad, at least one previously undisclosed, low-observable helicopter apparently was part of the U.S. task force that killed and recovered bin Laden’s body. It appears to be a significantly modified version of a Sikorsky H-60 Black Hawk, although whether an MH-60K, L or M version is still unknown. The U.S. Army’s 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment (Airborne), the Night Stalkers, uses all three types of MH-60s.

Pentagon leadership remains tight-lipped about operational details. But an intelligence source says two Black Hawks and two Boeing HH-47 Chinooks were used. The Black Hawks participated in the assault, and the Chinooks were used to refuel the Black Hawks and for backup. Indeed, when the one Black Hawk was downed, a Chinook came in to help complete exfiltration of the Navy Seals.

What is as intriguing as the stealth adaptations is how well they apparently worked. “The attack on bin Laden did not occur in some remote area outside Pakistani control, but in a compound in a city of some 100,000 and less than 100 mi. from a major Pakistani population center like Islamabad, and one occupied by a brigade from the Pakistani army’s second division and the location of the Army’s military academy,” notes analyst Anthony Cordesman of the Center for Strategic & International Studies.

According to the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, who was briefed last week by the military on the issue, it was not a mechanical failure or a problem by the pilot that downed the Black Hawk—it was a miscalculation of temperature in and outside the compound. The Black Hawk ran into lift trouble due to a 15F difference inside the courtyard, says Rep. Buck McKeon (R-Calif.). “They couldn’t hold the ­hover.”

The Seals appear to have destroyed almost all of the airframe that landed inside the compound, but part of the helicopter’s tail landed outside the wall and escaped demolition during the roughly 40-min. ground operation.

The public photos show that the destroyed Black Hawk’s tail features stealth-configured shapes on the boom and the tail-rotor hub fairings, swept stabilizers and a “dishpan” cover over a five- or six-blade tail rotor. It has a silver-loaded infrared (IR) suppression finish similar to that seen on the Bell-Boeing V-22 Osprey.

Stealth enhancements for rotorcraft are not new and were applied extensively to the Boeing/Sikorsky RAH-66 Comanche, canceled in 2004. Compared with fixed-wing stealth, more emphasis is usually placed on noise and IR signatures.

Noise can be reduced and made less conspicuous by adding blades to the main and tail rotors. It can also be reduced by aerodynamic modifications and flight control changes that make it possible to reduce rotor rpm, particularly in forward flight below maximum speed. Under any such effort, a reduction in IR would be critical; the Comanche had an elaborate system of exhaust ducts and fresh-air ejectors in its tail boom.

Classic radar cross-section (RCS) reduction measures include flattened and canted body sides, making landing gear and other features retractable, and adding fairings over the rotor hubs. But it is believed that a helicopter cannot yet be made as radar-stealthy as a fixed-wing airplane, as helicopters generally operate at low altitude and against ground clutter. Still, reducing RCS makes jamming more effective, whether from the helicopter itself or from a standoff jammer.

According to Pentagon budget data from fiscal 2010, there have been plans for an MH-60M version. Following standard practice, this would have been the most recent Black Hawk variant for the Army to be upgraded for U.S. Special Operations Command (Socom) standards.

A Socom official says the M, or “Mike,” upgrade kit costs $18 million per unit. It includes specialized avionics, aerial refueling capability, engine upgrade and aircraft survivability equipment, as expected. Such radar and noise-suppression capabilities also could be favored by the U.S. Air Force, which is known to be eyeing more Mikes for combat search-and-recue missions.
And let's get one thing straight. There's a big difference between a pilot and an aviator. One is a technician; the other is an artist in love with flight. — E. B. Jeppesen
Click Click D'oh (Photo Quality Screener & Founding Member) 09 May 11, 12:32Post
But an intelligence source says two Black Hawks and two Boeing HH-47 Chinooks were used. The Black Hawks participated in the assault, and the Chinooks were used to refuel the Black Hawks and for backup. Indeed, when the one Black Hawk was downed, a Chinook came in to help complete exfiltration of the Navy Seals.



Makes you wonder if the stealth hawks were really necessary if the hook could get in too... unless there's a stealth hook out there... {mischief}
We sleep peacefully in our beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on our behalf
miamiair (netAirspace FAA) 09 May 11, 12:33Post
Click Click D'oh wrote:
unless there's a stealth hook out there... {mischief}


I will pay money to see that.
And let's get one thing straight. There's a big difference between a pilot and an aviator. One is a technician; the other is an artist in love with flight. — E. B. Jeppesen
JLAmber (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 09 May 11, 12:41Post
miamiair wrote:
Click Click D'oh wrote:
unless there's a stealth hook out there... {mischief}


I will pay money to see that.


You would hear it a long time before you saw it!
A million great ideas...
Coz 10 May 11, 08:59Post
I wonder how much one costs... {sick}
captoveur 10 May 11, 12:46Post
I'll throw this idea out there.. Any chance it was intentionally crashed to expedite getting the team on the ground?

Sounds silly, I know.. But it isn't the first time we have done something like that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ivory_Coast
I like my coffee how I like my women: Black, bitter, and preferably fair trade.
miamiair (netAirspace FAA) 10 May 11, 12:54Post
Could be a huge disinformation campaign too...
And let's get one thing straight. There's a big difference between a pilot and an aviator. One is a technician; the other is an artist in love with flight. — E. B. Jeppesen
UH60 19 Jul 11, 23:19Post
lol those photos make me laugh...
Queso (netAirspace ATC Tower Chief & Founding Member) 20 Jul 11, 03:23Post
UH60 wrote:lol those photos make me laugh...

Tell us why.
Slider... <sniff, sniff>... you stink.
AndesSMF (Founding Member) 20 Jul 11, 04:39Post
Queso wrote:
UH60 wrote:lol those photos make me laugh...

Tell us why.

If he does then he'll have to kill us.
Einstein said two things were infinite; the universe, and stupidity. He wasn't sure about the first, but he was certain about the second.
UH60 21 Jul 11, 00:04Post
Well it's not just this photo, I've seen a few others, and they're all so comic-like. I dunno why. Maybe it has something to do with Hollywood. Or maybe it just stems from an over-inflated view of our capabilities? ...which actually might a result of the former?
 

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