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Falklands/Malvinas V2.0

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miamiair (netAirspace FAA) 10 Mar 12, 01:42Post
Via E-Mail:

This is not your parents’ Falklands war.

Yet all is not the same as it was in 1982, starting with those military forces, and “what-if” questions are emerging across the Atlantic. Could Argentina take the Falklands if it chose to today? Could the U.K. prevail, especially with austere budgets in London already triggering interservice rivalries? While the arguments are old, the weapons and tactics have changed quite a bit.

The British Defense Ministry position is simple regarding Falklands security: RAF Mount Pleasant, home to four multirole Typhoon fighters, has grown in capability substantially from 1982-2012. An attempt to attack the Falklands by air would be met with these fourth-generation aircraft (versus no such deployment in 1982). And any Argentinean forces that leak through today would then have to face British ground-based air defenses, unlike 30 years ago.

By comparison, pitting Typhoons with advanced-medium-range-air-to-air-missiles against severely aging Argentinean aircraft (AW&ST Jan. 26, 2009, p. 240) seems one-sided. The late President Nestor Kirchner’s planned military buildup last decade fizzled against worsening economic conditions. Argentina reportedly even considered buying Lockheed Martin F-16s, but has had to make do with legacy A-4s, most recently purchased in the mid-1990s.

But some observers suggest that rather than a “conventional” strike, an Argentinean offensive could revolve around asymmetric attacks. One potential scenario could entail Special Operations Forces attacking Mount Pleasant, crippling the Typhoons with mortars and explosives, and leading the way for follow-on forces arriving by air and sea.

Still, the imminent arrival of HMS Dauntless, the second of the U.K.’s newest class of advanced destroyers, also is seen as a sign that London can deploy the necessary capabilities. News reports—neither confirmed nor denied—say a nuclear-powered attack submarine, likely equipped with conventional Tomahawk land-attack missiles, is a near-constant presence in the region.

Still, any talk of the Falklands is muddied by interservice rivalry in the U.K. The decision to retire all fixed-wing naval aviation assets under the 2010 Strategic Defense and Security Review saw the question posed almost immediately by Royal Navy proponents: “How could we retake the Falklands?” It is the one area in which the U.K. clearly lacks military capabilities that it possessed in 1982.

By comparison, looking at the situation with frigates and destroyers leads to a more favorable conclusion. The Type 23s and 45s are leagues ahead of the vast majority of ships deployed in 1982, as are their subsystems and associated equipment. As for amphibious assault ships, the outdated HMS Fearless was being retired in 1982, and HMS Albion and Bulwark, plus auxiliary vessels today, are far improved over those of the previous generation. Still, one gnawing question is how many vessels will be available without gutting other, equally important commitments elsewhere, like the Persian Gulf.

As for the British troops to send ashore, they are vastly better equipped and more experienced today, with close to a decade of operations in Iraq and Afghanistan under their belts. The one significant difference in the 30-year span is that the U.K. has now deployed and demonstrated the use of attack helicopters from assault ships, which would be very valuable in any campaign. Argentinean troops specifically, and the military generally, have been nowhere nearly as battle-proven.

Yet perhaps the greatest factor concerning the Falklands is will and determination. In 1982, the U.K.’s decision to withdraw a permanent naval presence in the South Atlantic seemingly was seized upon by Argentina as a sign that there was no will for a fight. Then-Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher proved this assumption wrong. But given today’s budget austerity, would David Cameron do the same?

And let's get one thing straight. There's a big difference between a pilot and an aviator. One is a technician; the other is an artist in love with flight. — E. B. Jeppesen
ANCFlyer (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 10 Mar 12, 01:59Post
Any fleeting thoughts Argentina may have about the FALKLANDS should be tempered with the fact that the UK Military . . . all of it . . . can vastly outnumber and outgun them - even from a distance - and they've got a decade of war fresh on their shirt tails.

It's be like, say . . . . I dunno, the Bahamas attacking the US? Just a toss in the dark.
LET'S GO BRANDON!!!!
Click Click D'oh (Photo Quality Screener & Founding Member) 10 Mar 12, 02:03Post
As long as the UK keeps a nuke sub in the region, Argentina would be very hard pressed to pull anything off.
We sleep peacefully in our beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on our behalf
Boris (Founding Member) 10 Mar 12, 02:45Post
Not everybody thinks the British are in such good shape in the South Atlantic, including a British general who fought there in 1982...

During an interview to the British newspaper “The Times”, Malvinas’ war veteran and major general Julian Thompson said the United Kingdom would lose the Malvinas islands if Argentina decided to invade the archipelago.

Thompson, who commanded the brigade of Royal Marines during the 1982 conflict, said the South Atlantic territory have been “left vulnerable” by defence cuts, and it would be 'end of story' if Argentine forces took the British base on East Malvinas.

http://www.buenosairesherald.com/articl ... -argentina
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers...
ANCFlyer (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 10 Mar 12, 03:10Post
Boris wrote:Not everybody thinks the British are in such good shape in the South Atlantic, including a British general who fought there in 1982...

During an interview to the British newspaper “The Times”, Malvinas’ war veteran and major general Julian Thompson said the United Kingdom would lose the Malvinas islands if Argentina decided to invade the archipelago.

Thompson, who commanded the brigade of Royal Marines during the 1982 conflict, said the South Atlantic territory have been “left vulnerable” by defence cuts, and it would be 'end of story' if Argentine forces took the British base on East Malvinas.

http://www.buenosairesherald.com/articl ... -argentina


I would make an educated bet if the Brits fell afoul in the Falklands, that, by treaty, there'd be some assistance . . . it's a rule. They've had our backs, we'd have there's. Unless by some strange concoction in DC, we don't partake in NATO any longer . . .
LET'S GO BRANDON!!!!
Boris (Founding Member) 10 Mar 12, 04:37Post
ANCFlyer wrote:I would make an educated bet if the Brits fell afoul in the Falklands, that, by treaty, there'd be some assistance . . . it's a rule. They've had our backs, we'd have there's. Unless by some strange concoction in DC, we don't partake in NATO any longer . . .

As long as Obama's in the White House, don't bet more than a nickel on this country doing what it is legally or morally obligated to do.

Last year:
President Obama was effusive in his praise for the Special Relationship when he visited London recently, but his administration continues to slap Britain in the face over the highly sensitive Falklands issue. Washington signed on to a “draft declaration on the question of the Malvinas Islands” passed by unanimous consent by the General Assembly of the Organisation of American States (OAS) at its meeting in San Salvador yesterday, an issue which had been heavily pushed by Argentina. In doing so, the United States sided not only with Buenos Aires, but also with a number of anti-American regimes including Hugo Chavez’s Venezuela and Daniel Ortega’s Nicaragua.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/nileg ... falklands/

Last month:

“Our position remains the same. This is a problem between two of our partners. We do not want to change our position. We prefer that both countries negotiate a diplomatic solution in that matter,”

http://en.mercopress.com/2012/02/08/us- ... eral-issue

If Argentina has any ideas about another attack on the islands, they'd be wise to do it before November. Obama won't do a damned thing to help the UK...
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers...
paul mcallister 11 Mar 12, 13:32Post
The UK would be in a very difficult position if Argentina decided to invade.
Due to savage recent defense cuts,the UK currently has no operational aircraft carriers-these would be vital if a new conflict was to start.

Let`s hope the situation does not escalate,and Argentina see sense and back down.
44Magnum (Founding Member) 11 Mar 12, 22:29Post
The Argentinians won't be taking sovereignty of the Falklands any time soon...

1.) In 1982, the world was a rather different place. Britain's Armed Forces and intelligence services focused their attention heavily to the east of the Iron Curtain: they had little to no interest in South America. Few Brits had even heard of the Falkland Islands. The Royal Navy was primarily geared towards an anti-submarine role, and the British Army was massed in northern Germany waiting for Warsaw Pact forces to come steaming through the Fulda Gap. Expeditionary warfare in the South Atlantic was hardly the order of the day.

It transpired after the war that GCHQ (the UK's signals intelligence service) had intercepted a small number of Argentine diplomatic and military messages that indicated that Argentina was concentrating her forces in the Atlantic area and the Foreign Ministry had ordered Argentine diplomatic posts to be on high alert. However, it seems nobody appreciated the significance of these cables, and they were assigned a low priority grading and presumably never seen by any senior officials. Likewise, SIS (aka MI6) received a severe internal pummelling for allowing its Humint sources in Latin America to dwindle in number and quality, and its then director, Sir Colin Figures, was very nearly fired. Suffice it to say, those mistakes won't be made again.

2.) The British forces now defending the Falklands are very well equipped. When Argentina invaded in 1982, there were about a dozen Royal Marines based there who were armed with nothing more than a few L1A1s and GPMGs. (Indeed, they were actually instructed not to resist capture, but opted to do so anyway, and killed several Argentine soldiers before surrendering. They were promptly transported back to Britain via Montevideo, whereupon most of them joined the Task Force that eventually liberated the islands.) Now, the Argentines would have to fight their way past several advanced fast jets, over a thousand Marines and Special Forces soldiers, a nuclear submarine, and a guided-missile destroyer. The theory is that this is a sufficiently powerful force to be able to hold the Argentines at bay long enough for reinforcements to be flown in from Britain. It is instructive to recall that one of the main reasons that Argentina lost the war is that they were unable to replenish their forces on the islands. After the Belgrano was torpedoed and sunk by the submarine HMS Conqueror with the loss of over 320 lives, the Argentine Navy did not dare leave port for the rest of the war.

3.) The current British Army has more real war-fighting experience than any other British Army since 1945. A decade of war in Iraq and Afghanistan has given us a large infantry-based Army full of soldiers who have personal experience of operations in extremely hostile and unforgiving environments. What comparable experience does the Argentine Army have? In 1982, British servicemen in the South Atlantic were outnumbered three to one by Argentine forces, yet managed to inflict a much higher death toll on the Argentines than the losses they caused us. Today's British Army is no less capable than that faced by the Argentines in 1982.
 

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