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Cadet57 wrote:Like these?

Exactly..

BlueLion wrote:

Cadet57 wrote:Like these?

Exactly..

Too small. No way could a proper set of jaws with five cutting/prying heads, air hose, air bags, air tanks, pike poles, and power unit fit on one of those.

Edit: Here's a small two head unit. Now imagine how a full five head unit set would fit on a pickup truck...

Allow me to stir the pot even further.

Mark, your gripe about paramedics never being considered heroes when cops and firefighters are... Try being a dispatcher/calltaker and even once being considered a hero?

It's all part of the puzzle, and just as important as the responders on scene, someone has to 1) not only be able to determine, based on very limited information and even more limited verbal language skills or education of the caller, exactly what the problem is and where the problem is (the latter being most difficult in this area with large foreign populations, many who speak only spanish/portugese/creole, and/or who are not fully aware of the concept of "NE/NW/SE/SW" address quadrants, or which city out of approximately 30 in the county they're in, these cities all sharing no less than eight different addressing systems), and 2) attempt to provide the proper pre-arrival instructions based on this limited information provided by the callers when, perhaps, they didn't even fully understand the qualifying "key" patient status questions being asked of them from the Emergency Medical Dispatch protocol, be it either due to unfamiliar medical terms that we still have to read verbatim from the cards (alternate "words" can be used to clarify, but in the essense of time, the clearest words are designed to be read first, thus the "clarifying" words are only more complicated), or improper translation through the language line.

Our job, perhaps not fully understood by those relying on us to allow them to be able to do their jobs, is to be able to take the most complicated information, from the most ambiguous sources, and process it into something concrete such as the "who, what, when, where", provide it in a most timely manner, and be expected to be certain of our answers when the complainants were not certain of theirs ("Yes, we're certain that the complainant did not know if the suspect had any weapons", "Yes, we're certain that the complainant did not know if anyone was still trapped inside the burning house").

What many scene responders may not realize (or care), is that by the time the call goes out with just the very basic of information such as an address and the knowledge it's at least some sort of police, fire, or medical situation, just to get to that point may have been akin to putting a man on the moon by asking 30 different ways of gathering some sort of information from the hysterical caller that managed to reach us through a line that doesn't have E911 (maybe a transfer from another agency that used our non-emergency number instead of an E911 trunk, or an operator-assist transfer, etc), or called from a cellphone that doesn't have Phase-2 GPS capability (they still exist, although increasingly rare), or by some other means that doesn't give us immediate location information. And then after all that, while we've established, say, a robbery took place at a particular location, we then have to clear the hurdle of gathering the "who, what, when" while the responders scream code 3 across the city, wondering why we have no other information for them as of yet, when the last robbery call they responded to already had the suspect's shoelace color before they could even say "enroute".

And as for medical calls, how often do you hear the calltaker credited with saving the life of the near-drowning victim by initiating CPR over the phone? How often do you hear the calltaker credited with saving the life of the choking infant? How often do you hear the calltaker credited with potentially saving the life of a patient by administering aspirin to those experiencing chest pains (when meeting the diagnostic criteria for administering), or talking a car accident victim through getting safely out of a sinking vehicle in a canal when the responders are still minutes away, or preventing an industrial accident victim from bleeding to death, or telling a wife, who heard a noise from the garage and just discovered her husband hanging by the neck and turning blue, to cut him down, loosen the noose, check for breathing, and begin CPR if necessary before the paramedics arrive on scene?

Guess who shows up with the paddles and takes all the glory?

There's only one thing we ask: Know who the true first responders are.

This has been a pet peeve of mine for a LONG time.. In my humble opinion, even BEFORE my current job I was sick of firefighters playing up the whole hero thing. Honestly, I think the firefighters perpetuate the myth just to assist themselves in getting laid. You go find Joe Volunteer firefighter in Bumfuck, Texas he will play the hero card like it was his ass running up 100 stories in the towers.

I haven't noticed as big of a problem with the police... But I work with a pretty unselfish group.

It is so bad with SAFD the medics can barely stand the firefighters in a lot of cases- and they have to share a station.

captoveur wrote:Honestly, I think the firefighters perpetuate the myth just to assist themselves in getting laid. You go find Joe Volunteer firefighter in Bumfuck, Texas he will play the hero card like it was his ass running up 100 stories in the towers.

For those that haven't seen it...

Ever since I was a wet-behind-the-ears basic EMT, I've wondered why the fire department always got ten times more people applying for volunteer positions than the volunteer EMS department. Back then in 1979, the fire dept was lucky to get a fire call every two weeks and most were small grass fires and smoke alarm calls. The EMS dept got at least a call a day and there was always action...a real emergency that you could really get into.

Today, the fire department still gets many more times the applicants than the EMS department. Yet, the fire calls are still only one or two a week. Whereas, the EMS dept's call volume is now three or four, sometimes seven, calls a day. You want action? Join the EMS dept. You wanna sit around all day? Join the fire dept.

First, there's been a lot of new material since I was last here...I've fallen behind!

Mark wrote:
Staffing, thankfully, has never been an issue. Between you and me, we budget for three on every call (including interfacilities), so that gives us more funds to play with to fiddle with staffing in general. We also maintain a policy of no 911 calls will ever be on hold; every emergency call gets an ambulance on the road within three minutes. Our department has four trucks and all four are out at the same time only once a year on average. We frequently, thanks to a liberal mutual aid policy with surrounding departments, move ambulances into our area if three trucks or more are called out at the same time. The mutual aid plan calls for moving trucks between departments at no cost to the requesting department. And, of course, we gladly move our trucks into their districts free of charge when requested.

Of course, I'm just a sideline observer now. I've been formally retired for three years, but I just can't break away completely.

Those are some very nice policies. Staffing three people is a very nice and works wonders as long as everyone is competent...I've worked with some people that gave me more than enough HOLY S#!T WTF moments. That's an employee selection problem. Good, well thought out mutual aid policies are an absolute must in this business...can't count how many times mutual aid has saved my butt.

KFLLCFII wrote:Allow me to stir the pot even further.

e have no other information for them as of yet, when the last robbery call they responded to already had the suspect's shoelace color before they could even say "enroute".

And as for medical calls, how often do you hear the calltaker credited with saving the life of the near-drowning victim by initiating CPR over the phone? How often do you hear the calltaker credited with saving the life of the choking infant? How often do you hear the calltaker credited with potentially saving the life of a patient by administering aspirin to those experiencing chest pains (when meeting the diagnostic criteria for administering), or talking a car accident victim through getting safely out of a sinking vehicle in a canal when the responders are still minutes away, or preventing an industrial accident victim from bleeding to death, or telling a wife, who heard a noise from the garage and just discovered her husband hanging by the neck and turning blue, to cut him down, loosen the noose, check for breathing, and begin CPR if necessary before the paramedics arrive on scene?

Guess who shows up with the paddles and takes all the glory?

There's only one thing we ask: Know who the true first responders are.

Dispatchers are sort of like guardian angels that sometimes get grumpy. Dispatch not only keeps our heads on straight, but they make sure that we're safe on scene and often advocate for us (Such as sending the lazy medic unit out for the air medical hookup instead of our unit that's done three tubes in the first nine hours.), which is a blessing to both us and the patients we care for. You guys are amazing! I know one LEO dispatcher that keeps track of DUI arrests and gives out gold stars.

captoveur wrote:This has been a pet peeve of mine for a LONG time.. In my humble opinion, even BEFORE my current job I was sick of firefighters playing up the whole hero thing. Honestly, I think the firefighters perpetuate the myth just to assist themselves in getting laid. You go find Joe Volunteer firefighter in Bumfuck, Texas he will play the hero card like it was his ass running up 100 stories in the towers.

I haven't noticed as big of a problem with the police... But I work with a pretty unselfish group.

It is so bad with SAFD the medics can barely stand the firefighters in a lot of cases- and they have to share a station.

I've had a volunteer firefighter yell "Outta the way!" at me while I was going to take spinal precautions at an MVA...I was like, WHO the gentle caress are you and what the poo poo are you talking about? Guy was wearing turnout bottoms and Miller Lite top which he later stripped off apparently because he got too hot. I still don't know where he came from and why his fire truck responded...also once had a volunteer FF try to race my medic unit to a code in his POV, which was similar to the truck picture I've attached at the bottom.

Mark wrote:Ever since I was a wet-behind-the-ears basic EMT, I've wondered why the fire department always got ten times more people applying for volunteer positions than the volunteer EMS department. Back then in 1979, the fire dept was lucky to get a fire call every two weeks and most were small grass fires and smoke alarm calls. The EMS dept got at least a call a day and there was always action...a real emergency that you could really get into.

Today, the fire department still gets many more times the applicants than the EMS department. Yet, the fire calls are still only one or two a week. Whereas, the EMS dept's call volume is now three or four, sometimes seven, calls a day. You want action? Join the EMS dept. You wanna sit around all day? Join the fire dept.

How many people would volunteer if they didn't get to use lights and sirens? Or if they had to get just two years of college education?

Attachments

Actually comes from a fire-based forum...

FireEMS.jpg (40.57 KiB) Viewed 1039 times

Mmmm Hmmm. Definitely want this person helping my sorry rear end when I'm in trouble.

WHACKER ALERT.JPG (68.45 KiB) Viewed 1039 times

I was an EMT-B way back in the day, and some of the best/most prepared EMT's were the firefighters. There was one town back home where the firefighters were required to be at least EMT-I's (I don't know what the designations are now - used to go EMT-B, EMT-I and EMT-P).

Yes, many fire places do now have higher level "ALS" care quite commonly. The problem is that they many are taught to be "cookbook medics." They are taught from a skills based point of view versus a higher education, critical thinking standpoint. This has lead to the term "medic mill." Many paramedics are given a certification versus a degree. I personally think that all medics should have at least an AAS. Remember...a monkey could be trained to do most of the skills that a paramedic does, but the IMPORTANT part is having the education to understand when, where, and WHY to use the skills, and, more importantly, knowing when not to use them.

Once again, keep in mind that this is NOT always the case. Some very large fire-based systems do an excellent job, but many FIRE departments dislike having to do EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICES to keep themselves employed and justifiable. And Capt is very right...some fire based systems treat the EMS divisions they've taken over like crap and pay them far less for doing harder, more advanced, more challenging work.

Fire/Rescue? I'd be scared if my anesthetist had to become one just to keep his other job.

I've run into two types of medics. It's what Lucas is referring to. There are the ones that simply memorize flow charts of patient care: If you see this, do this, this, and this. Period. They treat their patients like a machine and they, themselves, are just robotic in their patient care.

Then there are those who actually think. They're the ones that look at the medical situation and THINK about what could be wrong with the patient, even before symptoms appear. They anticipate patient needs before a sign or symptom appears. Here's an example: If you're on a road trip and have to piss, nothing else matters until you find a toilet or a bush. Now consider the heart failure patient that's just received 40 or 80 mg of Lasix IV. Right now, his chest pain and possible death are his priorities. However, in about five minutes he's going to have to piss like never before. And he's going to stress his already weak heart trying not to mess the cot and embarrass himself. The thoughtful paramedic is going to put a foley catheter in him as soon as he pushes the Lasix so the patient doesn't have to cause himself a heart attack on top of his heart failure (assuming the heart failure isn't caused by a heart attack in the first place).

Mark wrote:Here's an example: If you're on a road trip and have to piss, nothing else matters until you find a toilet or a bush. Now consider the heart failure patient that's just received 40 or 80 mg of Lasix IV. Right now, his chest pain and possible death are his priorities. However, in about five minutes he's going to have to piss like never before. And he's going to stress his already weak heart trying not to mess the cot and embarrass himself. The thoughtful paramedic is going to put a foley catheter in him as soon as he pushes the Lasix so the patient doesn't have to cause himself a heart attack on top of his heart failure (assuming the heart failure isn't caused by a heart attack in the first place).

I guess you're also assuming the patient won't have another heart attack from the shock of having the catheter shoved in...

Boris wrote:

Mark wrote:Here's an example: If you're on a road trip and have to piss, nothing else matters until you find a toilet or a bush. Now consider the heart failure patient that's just received 40 or 80 mg of Lasix IV. Right now, his chest pain and possible death are his priorities. However, in about five minutes he's going to have to piss like never before. And he's going to stress his already weak heart trying not to mess the cot and embarrass himself. The thoughtful paramedic is going to put a foley catheter in him as soon as he pushes the Lasix so the patient doesn't have to cause himself a heart attack on top of his heart failure (assuming the heart failure isn't caused by a heart attack in the first place).

I guess you're also assuming the patient won't have another heart attack from the shock of having the catheter shoved in...

I've actually had dozens of patients happy to get a foley. A lot of them who've been through the IV Lasix thing in the past actually ask for it. Besides, it's the standard of care for incapacitated cardiac patients.

Wow, I'm taking a beating here. I know there are knuckle-head volunteer firefighters out there, and I know there are ambilvalent paid Fire-Medics but most of the ones I know are just trying to do the best for the patient/victim. My department started an ambulance service 3 years ago because the Kalispell City Fire Paramedics who were the only transporting agency for us got busier than their budget would allow for staff increases and had too many calls - so we were having to wait 10-15 mins for a transport from the next city over. We decided that in the best interest of our community we needed to start to transport. We train well, and take good care of our patients. We have decreased the response time and the time to definitive care, we now have a few paramedics and all of our EMT-B's have I.V./ IO, med admin, defib/monitoring, advanced airway ( we use the King) endorsments. We balance the Fire side with the EMS, we require everyone to do both. We have a good reputation in the community and amoungst the hospital staff/other agencies. The local LEO's do not have the man power to take care of traffic control etc at the scenes of our accidents - so we do that as well as take care of the needs of the victims and vehicles. We run with Two paid staff 24 hours a day - and cover the rest with call-backs and a core of 10 reserve(volunteer) firefighters. we take on average 5 calls a day and in the summer we run 12 a day. We have to be trained for Structural firefighting, wildfire fighting, auto extrication, swiftwater rescue, ice rescue, EMS, High and low angle rescue. The Chief and Fire marshall are paid by the taxpayers, all the rest of us are paid out of the ambulance billing reciepts. We work our asses off to give our community the best service possible with the lowest cost. Not one of us is looking to be called a hero.

I would bet that most of the firefighters in the country could say similar, but the few bad apples ruin it for the rest of us.


And those working solely in the EMS field deserve all the respect we can give them.

captoveur wrote:You go find Joe Volunteer firefighter in Bumfuck, Texas he will play the hero card like it was his ass running up 100 stories in the towers.

That statement sure hits home with a lot of the volunteers around here.

captoveur wrote:I haven't noticed as big of a problem with the police... But I work with a pretty unselfish group.

Yeah, but most rookies with the Texas Department of Public Safety are just as bad.

Mark wrote:
Why do people diss paramedics when it comes to the hero shit?

Because paramedics don't risk their lives to the same degree as police and firefighters.

I'm not saying it's fair, and yes, we need paramedics just as much as we need other public safety employees, but it is what it is.

halls120 wrote:Because paramedics don't risk their lives to the same degree as police and firefighters.

Hmm...I wonder...

What are the deadliest occupations in the US?

halls120 wrote:

Mark wrote:
Why do people diss paramedics when it comes to the hero shit?

Because paramedics don't risk their lives to the same degree as police and firefighters.

I'm not saying it's fair, and yes, we need paramedics just as much as we need other public safety employees, but it is what it is.

You need to qualify your statement.

If you work on an ambulance, you risk yourself a lot more than anyone else in several ways, because when we get in wrecks, we tend to die and not come back, and we unfortunately get in a lot more wrecks. We don't have huge vehicles and our mods tend to be nothing but death traps. If we have to give aid without restraints, wrecks make us little crumpling projectiles. We don't have the visibility of an engine.

http://www.emsresponder.com/features/article.jsp?id=9805&siteSection=25

[url]
http://www.emsnetwork.org/artman2/publi ... 6924.shtml[/url]

Unfortunately, people don't take into the account all the dangers that we face. Infectious disease, vehicle wrecks, assaults...

Anyway, if a firefighter is risking his life on purpose, he's stupid. The point is to minimize risk. If that means that a building burns, or that a person burns, or a -P's patient dies, it's just too bad. You can't help anyone else if you're dead yourself.

Fire and EMS both have a problem, though, and it's a very large killer for firemen...it's being fat and out of shape. Cardiovascular disease is on the rise big time, especially in fire. (I think maybe EMS has always been fat. )

Anyway, both jobs have varying risks that should be minimized, not chased after.

PS-I can source some fat articles if need be, but I don't have them here immediately. They were fire articles.

Lucas wrote:Fire and EMS both have a problem, though, and it's a very large killer for firemen...it's being fat and out of shape. Cardiovascular disease is on the rise big time, especially in fire. (I think maybe EMS has always been fat. )

Anyway, both jobs have varying risks that should be minimized, not chased after.

I'm not going to speak for Halls, but if I was presented with what he said, I might agree, and that's because there's (at least in perception) more risks in general for cops and firefighters. But I used to be an EMT, and the spectre of infectious disease is ever-present and just as bad as anything anyone can face.

AndesSMF wrote:

halls120 wrote:Because paramedics don't risk their lives to the same degree as police and firefighters.

Hmm...I wonder...

What are the deadliest occupations in the US?

Anyway, I can't debate about cops and nor would I want to. They naturally have a very dangerous job where risks are very HARD to minimize, and that's key here. Here is an article written by one of my favorite fire-related people:

http://www.emsresponder.com/print/Firehouse-Magazine---EMS-Features/You-CAN-Die-On-an-EMS-Call/3$7698

Excerpts:

You CAN Die On an EMS Call
New Web Initiative Spotlights Dangers Facing EMS Responders


By Gary Ludwig
Firehouse Magazine Fire Service EMS

The website has been up and running for about four months now and as I scan it periodically, I have noticed something that I never knew or realized. There are more EMS close calls than I ever imagined - and these are only the ones that hit the newspapers or the web that have something significant tied to it. The EMS close calls that Chris is posting cover the entire gamut - ambulance accidents, helicopter crashes, paramedics and EMTs being assaulted, kidnapped or shot, plus much more. Incidents that involve back injuries, smashed hands, accidental needlesticks and other less-sensational events never make the newspapers, thus they are not posted, but we can assume those things are happening daily also.
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Again, we closed 2006 with 106 firefighter deaths, although we are focusing more on safety and we are running fewer fire calls. The numbers of EMS-related deaths for 2006 has yet to be reported. But, if it is like previous years, it will be somewhere in the high 20s or low 30s. Each of these deaths is one too many. Please be safe!

Allstarflyer wrote:

Lucas wrote:Fire and EMS both have a problem, though, and it's a very large killer for firemen...it's being fat and out of shape. Cardiovascular disease is on the rise big time, especially in fire. (I think maybe EMS has always been fat. )

Anyway, both jobs have varying risks that should be minimized, not chased after.

I'm not going to speak for Halls, but if I was presented with what he said, I might agree, and that's because there's (at least in perception) more risks in general for cops and firefighters. But I used to be an EMT, and the spectre of infectious disease is ever-present and just as bad as anything anyone can face.

Oh, I agree with you about perception. Although I've done lots of research and keep extremely up-to-date on safety issues with fire and EMS, I can't really speak that much for fire, as I don't do anything related with structures. GPI would be the go to guy for that.

Also, GPI, I hope you know I'm not bashing on you. I put my own qualifying statements in there partially for your benefit. Plus, I've seen some private/third service that is nothing but utter BS.

Allstarflyer wrote:

Lucas wrote:Fire and EMS both have a problem, though, and it's a very large killer for firemen...it's being fat and out of shape. Cardiovascular disease is on the rise big time, especially in fire. (I think maybe EMS has always been fat. )

Anyway, both jobs have varying risks that should be minimized, not chased after.

I'm not going to speak for Halls, but if I was presented with what he said, I might agree, and that's because there's (at least in perception) more risks in general for cops and firefighters. But I used to be an EMT, and the spectre of infectious disease is ever-present and just as bad as anything anyone can face.

All Star gets it. I'm not saying that factually EMS isn't just as risky an occupation - I don't know the stats.

I do know it is the perception that being an EMS isn't as risky

AndesSMF wrote:

halls120 wrote:Because paramedics don't risk their lives to the same degree as police and firefighters.

Hmm...I wonder...

What are the deadliest occupations in the US?

1) Fishers and Fishing Workers
Deaths per 100,000 workers: 142
Total Deaths: 51
Dangers: Work in all kinds of weather, often hundreds of miles from shore with no help readily available; crew members risk falling on slippery decks, leading to serious injuries or falling overboard; potential hazards include malfunctioning fishing gear and becoming entangled in nets.

2) Pilots and Flight Engineers
Deaths per 100,000 workers: 88
Total Deaths: 101
Dangers: Risky conditions are most acute for test pilots, who check equipment for new, experimental planes, as well as crop dusters, who are exposed to toxins and sometimes lack a regular landing strip; helicopter pilots often engage in dangerous rescue.

3) Loggers
Deaths per 100,000 workers: 82
Total Deaths: 64
Dangers: Loggers are susceptible to high winds, falling branches and hidden roots or vines that present great risks around chain saws and other heavy equipment.

4) Iron and Steel Workers
Deaths per 100,000 workers: 61
Total Deaths: 36
Dangers: Most work at considerable heights, with the greatest cause of injury or death coming from falls.

5) Refuse and Recyclable Material Collectors
Deaths per 100,000 workers: 42
Total Deaths: 38
Dangers: Some also work at great heights, occasionally in extreme weather; often, workers are exposed to fumes and hazardous materials that can impair their respiratory systems.

Rounding out the top 10 U.S. jobs with the highest fatality rates: farmers and ranchers (38 deaths for every 100,000 workers); electrical power line workers (35/100,000); roofers (34/100,000); drivers (truckers and salespeople) (27/100,000); and agricultural workers (22/100,000).

Perception is often different that reality, isn't it?

We can't talk about how risky it is being a policeman/firefighter w/o comparing it to other jobs. And it appears as if there are many other jobs that are far more risky than being a LEO or firefighter.

And I would guess they don't have the same benefits.

Sorry then, only saw perception in AS's post, which you will noticed that I noted and agreed with. Thanks for the links about deaths/100,000.

Also, I hope everyone realizes that I do respect FFs and know that there are many that are the best of the best. Both professions attract dumb whackers. And I know HIPAA is largely to blame for some things.

Also structure FFs do a job that I don't want to do, and I respect them for that.

The problem I see with this discussion is that it hasn't addressed one of the main reasons for the "hero" perception that is attributed (in some instances more than others) to cops, firefighters, ems workers and soldiers - that is the perception that the motivation they have for assuming the risk in their jobs is in defense of "life, liberty, and property". We all know that an Alaskan fisherman has one of the riskiest jobs, but there isn't any perception of majesty attached to risking your life so that others "may eat crab legs". On the other hand the commonly termed "hero" jobs revolve around saving life and or property, and as a nation we generally view the people who choose to do this as heros - especially if they are a volunteer because they aren't being compensated for the risk they are taking.


Just my two cents.

My beef is that often perception is used to drive policy.

A few years ago, California gave correction officers huge raises because of the dangers they face every day. This includes parole officers that easily earn over $100K/year. It creates a vicious circle as each group then redefines the dangers they encounter everyday, and then demand recognition ($$) for those dangers.

And this is how you get large salaries for highway patrol officers, which then morphs into large salaries for sheriffs and police, which then morphs into large salaries for firefighters, corrections officers, etc.

And since pensions are tied to salary, you can see one problem that local and state government budgets face. And for the most part, this has only occurred in the last decade or so.

GPIARFF wrote: On the other hand the commonly termed "hero" jobs revolve around saving life and or property, and as a nation we generally view the people who choose to do this as heros

My view is a little different, and perhaps it comes from living in countries were you cannot really depend on police and firefighters to save your life.

Personally, I see it as something that all humans should do when the opportunity presents itself, that is to risk life and limb to save someone else's life.