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767 or A330 Tanker Choice

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Lucas (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 28 Jan 10, 01:31Post
I was sent this short article, and was interested in other's opinions. What do you say? Truth or propaganda piece?

Top 8 Reasons to Put Boeing to Work Building our Next Tanker Fleet
By Brigadier General Thomas C. Pinckney (US Air Force - Retired)


After several fits and starts, the Air Force is finally set to bid out a $40 billion contract to build a fleet of aerial refueling tankers to replace our current, Eisenhower-era fleet. Two companies are in the running to build the tankers – Chicago-based Boeing, and Airbus Industries, based in Toulouse, France. Boeing looks ready to build a tanker based on its B767 airliner, while Airbus will likely offer a tanker based on its A330 airliner.

While there are arguments for choosing either plane, here are this observer’s top ten reasons for keeping the contract in American hands.

1 – Experience. Boeing has been building America’s tankers for the past 50 years, and is now producing their fifth-generation refueling boom. Airbus is not fully operational with its first tanker, or its first boom.

2 – Time. Boeing has a factory producing 767s right now, while Airbus plans to ship A330 parts to be assembled in a yet-to-be-built facility in Alabama that will likely delay the program for another five years.

3 – Size. While the A330 is too large and heavy to land on many US and allied airfields, the B767 can access the same bases as our current fleet. That makes the Boeing plane more available, and cheaper, since the larger A330 would require large military construction costs for reinforcing and widening runways and building larger hangars.

4 – Safety. Airbus’ A330 is too large and heavy to perform emergency breakaway and over-run maneuvers critical to the safety of the refueling process, while Boeing’s medium-sized 767 is sized and powered appropriately for these maneuvers. Additionally, the larger, less agile A330 presents an easier target for an enemy.

5 – Security. Airbus and its parent company EADS (The European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company) are loyal to their own national interests, not ours. If EADS’ parent governments disagree with US military policy, if they are threatened by an enemy for providing military assistance to the US, or if they decide to seek profits by sharing our tanker technology with governments that may be hostile to the US, our national security interest could suffer.

6 – Reliability. Will Airbus stick to the terms of the contract, or charge more down the road? Citing Germany’s largest newspaper, Bloomberg’s Cornelius Rahn reported on January 1st that “Airbus is putting pressure on governments that have ordered its A400M transport plane to contribute more money to the financing of the project. … Airbus wants about 5.3 billion euros ($7.6 billion) more than the 20 billion euros agreed on in 2003 in order to deliver 180 of the military transports, the newspaper said.” If Airbus is willing to make shake its own governments down at the last minute for an additional 40 percent, what makes us believe the US Air Force will not receive a similar ultimatum?

7 – Subsidies. The World Trade Organization has recently ruled that Airbus has taken billions of dollars in illegal trade subsidies from European governments that were specifically intended to make Airbus’s prices competitive with Boeing. Such subsidies violate our free-trade agreements, and certainly our sense of fair play. If we ignore such blatant violations of our free-trade agreements, it will only serve to encourage other countries to cheat their way into US military contracts.

8 – Industry. The American industrial base is challenged on many fronts. And while we must adapt to the global economy and be competitive within it, we must also be judicious in maintaining an industrial base when it comes to vital strategic programs. Certainly we would not outsource nuclear missile production to a foreign government. Are the tankers that keep us a global military power any less important?

Now, Airbus may yet surprise us with some spectacular deal on an airplane we haven’t heard about, but unless and until that happens, these eight reasons are enough to convince this retired USAF pilot to go with what we know.
----------------------------

Retired Brigadier General Thomas C. Pinckney (US Air Force) is a decorated fighter pilot, served in the U.S. Air Force for nearly 30 years.
LPNTed 28 Jan 10, 01:44Post
Given what happened last time, and the fact we are in such a severe recession where every single American job counts now more than ever, there is no way the selection can be anything other than a Boeing product.
At least I'm not a drunk.
Airfoilsguy (Founding Member) 28 Jan 10, 02:06Post
The politicians would be out of their minds to chose a non-American product.


I know that Boeing could rape the military for this reason but there are ways to keep this from happening.

Incentives
Tax breaks
Future sales


A good negotiator could make this happen without paying double what Airbus is offering.
Allstarflyer (Database Editor & Founding Member) 28 Jan 10, 02:26Post
For all the good he puts forth in those reasons, I wish Boeing could somehow improve on the 767 to make it a more clear-cut runaway winner in this kind of competition. W/o having to read the propaganda of others (re: Keesjee), I know that the A330 is a solid craft. I'm hoping the brass, Congress and anyone else w/input on the money outlay favors Boeing.
captoveur 28 Jan 10, 11:17Post
Buy both.

That would create the most jobs, and put a lid on the bickering.
I like my coffee how I like my women: Black, bitter, and preferably fair trade.
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 28 Jan 10, 12:33Post
Let's have a look at the reasons the Brigadier General provides there:

1 – Experience. That basically says "Boeing always did it, so we should keep it that way." From my humble experience, that is the worst possible argument in an economic decision.

2 – Time. I don't know in what way the facility would influence the program. However, both manufacturers recently demonstrated to not being able to stick with their initial timelines in aircraft development.

3 – Size. What is the performance difference between the 767 and the 330 here? Which airfields can take the 767, but not the 330? (I'm not questioning the General's arguments here, just asking for a more detailed evaluation background.)

4 – Safety. The 330 being an easier target than the 767? Come on... To me, that seems his weakest point there.

5 – Security. In terms of strategic independence, I can somewhat follow the General's argument for a domestic manufacturer. Though of course I do hope that the horror scenario he paints there (EADS countries supporting America's enemies) will never come true, because then we will all have much bigger problems than these tankers.

6 – Reliability. Will Airbus stick to the terms of the contract? Well, given their recent performance, Airbus has to accept being asked such questions. However, if Boeing would encounter increased costs due to development problems, would such a behavior be completely out of question for them? Just asking...

7 – Subsidies. Yep, he has a point there. Airbus is a political company. That is probably their weakest spot in that respect.

8 – Industry. From what I read, the A330 tanker would be manufactured in the US as well, so the US industry would benefit from it. Plus, should it come to hostilities between the US and the EADS countries, the US would then still be left with the option to seize the plant.

So, he raises a few valid points there, but others seem rather weak to me.
Ideology: The mistaken belief that your beliefs are neither beliefs nor mistaken.
GQfluffy (Database Editor & Founding Member) 28 Jan 10, 12:39Post
The guy took a pro-US stance and spun it his way. At this point, it would be nice to see some specs on what each aircraft could do regarding range, offload capability, time on location, etc etc.

This "the A330 is a larger aircraft so it is more vulnerable" is rather good comedy. {silly}
Teller of no, fixer of everything, friend of the unimportant and all around good guy; the CAD Monkey
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 28 Jan 10, 12:42Post
He was obviously running out of bullet points. After all, he introduced it as his "Top 10 reasons", but then only made it to 8, including the "easy target" one. :))

Seriously, there is nothing wrong with taking a pro-US stance in that question. And as I said, he has raised a few valid points there. I am not saying that Airbus is necessarily the better choice here.
Ideology: The mistaken belief that your beliefs are neither beliefs nor mistaken.
GQfluffy (Database Editor & Founding Member) 28 Jan 10, 12:46Post
Hey, I personally don't care. The military needs the best aircraft, IMHO. But...naturally...we don't know what the manufacturers are promising...so we're basically clueless. Could a combination of aircraft be best? Without knowing much of anything, most likely, but that could bring about a logistical nightmare from a scheduling standpoint.
Teller of no, fixer of everything, friend of the unimportant and all around good guy; the CAD Monkey
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 28 Jan 10, 12:56Post
GQfluffy wrote:Could a combination of aircraft be best?

I don't know. On the one hand, this would grant more independence. Plus, if there is permanent competition, both manufacturers would probably think twice before considering to rip their client off.

However, I don't know if that would necessarily lead to a reduction of costs. Both manufacturers would have to expand their manufacturing capacities to fulfill such an order. The costs for that expansion are more or less fix. So the costs per manufactured unit will subsequently be lower, the bigger the number of produced units will become.

Still, the idea has a certain charm.
Ideology: The mistaken belief that your beliefs are neither beliefs nor mistaken.
Lucas (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 28 Jan 10, 14:31Post
Very interesting link here. Click for a visit:

http://www.realamericantankers.com/?gclid=CJzW7uOlx58CFRTyDAodgR-eWw

(From the site)



I've seen the tanker at 2:09-15 when it was making a visit to Billings. I was working a 12 hour shift with AMR, so I couldn't get pictures. {vsad}
miamiair (netAirspace FAA) 28 Jan 10, 16:00Post
The problem I had with Boeing at the beginning was this:

They thought that it would be a sole-source contract, so it was a license to steal. That annoyed the crap out of me. The terms of their proposal were nuts.

I do believe that anything used to fight wars, should be built here in the US. As sure as the Sun rises in the east, we do not know who our allies will be tomorrow. For this reason, we cannot have a strategic element of our warfighting capability that can be held hostage by withholding essential spares.

I do think that the K330 does have some advantages over the KC-767. I know how screwed up contracting is, but I would make a split buy, 70/30 for the 767/A330F. Adjust the scale by the degree the OEM is willing to play ball.
And let's get one thing straight. There's a big difference between a pilot and an aviator. One is a technician; the other is an artist in love with flight. — E. B. Jeppesen
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 28 Jan 10, 16:33Post
miamiair wrote:I know how screwed up contracting is, but I would make a split buy, 70/30 for the 767/A330F. Adjust the scale by the degree the OEM is willing to play ball.

Or better yet: 30/30. And the party that performs better will get the other 40% as well.

Maybe that will keep them motivated to deliver on schedule for a change...
Ideology: The mistaken belief that your beliefs are neither beliefs nor mistaken.
Queso (netAirspace ATC Tower Chief & Founding Member) 28 Jan 10, 17:08Post
Do you want another tanker that can still be flying in 50 years like the current one or do you want one that will have to be replaced again in 20 years? If you put it in those terms, the choice should be clear. The 767 is the right tool for this job, and will also be the workhorse for our next generation of AWACS and ELINT aircraft as well.
Slider... <sniff, sniff>... you stink.
Arniepie 28 Jan 10, 21:02Post
Paging Zeke, paging Zeke, pls answer the call..............

And while we're at it, telephone for mr KC135TopBoom, .........
halls120 (Plank Owner) 04 Feb 10, 01:36Post
Zak wrote:
3 – Size. What is the performance difference between the 767 and the 330 here? Which airfields can take the 767, but not the 330? (I'm not questioning the General's arguments here, just asking for a more detailed evaluation background.)


From what I recall, the 330 takes up more ramp space, which is a minus. Yes, the counter argument is that the 330 can carry more cargo as justification for taking up more ramp space. However that "advantage" is undercut by the fact that we aren't currently using the airframe capacity we have now - most of the time our tankers don't need a full load for mission completion. So buying the 330 means we are buying a bigger airplane that takes up space, and that space isn't offset be increased capacity we actually need.

Zak wrote: 7 – Subsidies. Yep, he has a point there. Airbus is a political company. That is probably their weakest spot in that respect.


And assembling the 330T in Alabama isn't really going to offset that. If Airbus was a wholly private concern, this would be a non-issue.

I also thought the last time around, the 767 was cheaper per copy.
At home in the PNW and loving it
Lucas (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 04 Feb 10, 01:40Post
Interesting replies. While I have nothing against the A330, I don't think that our tanker program should be in European hands. I believe this should be a wholly American project.
halls120 (Plank Owner) 04 Feb 10, 01:48Post
Queso wrote:Do you want another tanker that can still be flying in 50 years like the current one or do you want one that will have to be replaced again in 20 years? If you put it in those terms, the choice should be clear. The 767 is the right tool for this job, and will also be the workhorse for our next generation of AWACS and ELINT aircraft as well.


I forgot about durability, and that is indeed an issue here.
At home in the PNW and loving it
 

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