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Canada's purchase of 65 new F-35 Joint Strike Fighter jets for 9bn Canadian dollars ($8.5bn; £5.6bn) is proving controversial.

The contract with US company Lockheed Martin was signed without a competitive bidding process, drawing fire from Canada's opposition party.

Liberal leader Michael Ignatieff said, if elected, his government would put a hold on the contract.

The jets will replace Canada's ageing fleet of CF-18s.

More: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-10667633

Competitive bidding with who? No one else makes such an animal.

Airfoilsguy wrote:Competitive bidding with who? No one else makes such an animal.

Sorry but the idea that no other aircraft could fit the future needs of the Canadian Air Force is maybe a little premature.
Besides its Stealth characteristics ,which some people say is only useful in some aspects at some angles, it's no F22 or B2 even Lockheed has said that much, it really has no definitive edge over most of its contemporaries (F15SE , F18SH, Rafale, EF) who also are capable of being outfitted with all of the latest electronic goodies.

Maybe following the propaganda line coming from LM isn't always the way to go, they've been doing it also at the Dutch armed forces up until now and more than once now it has come out that it is mostly hot air and it really isn't that much better than the others (some even say it is a jack of many things but a master at non of them ).

A fair competition would've been a better idea, it usually always is, still might have lead to the JSF but probably with better buying conditions iso the blank check to LM which they've done now.

Arniepie wrote:

Airfoilsguy wrote:Competitive bidding with who? No one else makes such an animal.

Sorry but the idea that no other aircraft could fit the future needs of the Canadian Air Force is maybe a little premature.
Besides its Stealth characteristics ,which some people say is only useful in some aspects at some angles, it's no F22 or B2 even Lockheed has said that much, it really has no definitive edge over most of its contemporaries (F15SE , F18SH, Rafale, EF) who also are capable of being outfitted with all of the latest electronic goodies.

Maybe following the propaganda line coming from LM isn't always the way to go, they've been doing it also at the Dutch armed forces up until now and more than once now it has come out that it is mostly hot air and it really isn't that much better than the others (some even say it is a jack of many things but a master at non of them ).

A fair competition would've been a better idea, it usually always is, still might have lead to the JSF but probably with better buying conditions iso the blank check to LM which they've done now.

Do you mean a competition like the one between Boeing and Lockheed Martin, where Boeing's X-32 lost out to Lockheed's X-35???

As a result of that competition, Lockheed Martin was awarded the contract to build the F-35.

You're right, competitive bidding usually leads to better products at better prices. Are you suggesting that there should be another competition now???

Arniepie wrote:

Airfoilsguy wrote:Competitive bidding with who? No one else makes such an animal.

Sorry but the idea that no other aircraft could fit the future needs of the Canadian Air Force is maybe a little premature.
Besides its Stealth characteristics ,which some people say is only useful in some aspects at some angles, it's no F22 or B2 even Lockheed has said that much, it really has no definitive edge over most of its contemporaries (F15SE , F18SH, Rafale, EF) who also are capable of being outfitted with all of the latest electronic goodies.

Maybe following the propaganda line coming from LM isn't always the way to go, they've been doing it also at the Dutch armed forces up until now and more than once now it has come out that it is mostly hot air and it really isn't that much better than the others (some even say it is a jack of many things but a master at non of them ).

A fair competition would've been a better idea, it usually always is, still might have lead to the JSF but probably with better buying conditions iso the blank check to LM which they've done now.

What about STOVL and vectored thrust?

You're right, competitive bidding usually leads to better products at better prices. Are you suggesting that there should be another competition now???

Nice try but the F32/F35 competition had absolutely nothing to do with the new fighters sought by non US countries, it was purely an US question and competition as to who was going to build the next fighters for the USAF/NAVY and MARINES, The resulting JSF build by LM should compete with all of the other platforms available for the RCAF.

What about STOVL and vectored thrust?

What about it ?
Not the version for the RCAF as far as I can tell, no requirements for STOVL and as far as I know the F35B doesn't do viffing (vectoring in forward flight) like the old harriers anyway, it is not a 4 way swing nozzle exhaust like the harrier but a YAK41 like exhaust nozzle aided by a lift fan only usable up unto certain speeds

Arniepie wrote:

You're right, competitive bidding usually leads to better products at better prices. Are you suggesting that there should be another competition now???

Nice try but the F32/F35 competition had absolutely nothing to do with the new fighters sought by non US countries, it was purely an US question and competition as to who was going to build the next fighters for the USAF/NAVY and MARINES, The resulting JSF build by LM should compete with all of the other platforms available for the RCAF.

Who do you propose will finance this supposed development of a competitor?

The US Government funded both Boeing and Lockheed to develop the X-32 and X-35, spending about $2 Billion just to come up with those prototypes. But in the grand scheme, that's not a bad investment, since the US plans to buy over 2,400 of the planes.

Here, Canada is planning to buy 65 of them. Who is going to pay to develop and build a competitor for a possible order of 65 planes???

Boris wrote:

Arniepie wrote:

You're right, competitive bidding usually leads to better products at better prices. Are you suggesting that there should be another competition now???

Nice try but the F32/F35 competition had absolutely nothing to do with the new fighters sought by non US countries, it was purely an US question and competition as to who was going to build the next fighters for the USAF/NAVY and MARINES, The resulting JSF build by LM should compete with all of the other platforms available for the RCAF.

Who do you propose will finance this supposed development of a competitor?

The US Government funded both Boeing and Lockheed to develop the X-32 and X-35, spending about $2 Billion just to come up with those prototypes. But in the grand scheme, that's not a bad investment, since the US plans to buy over 2,400 of the planes.

Here, Canada is planning to buy 65 of them. Who is going to pay to develop and build a competitor for a possible order of 65 planes???

Correct me if I am wrong but I think he means competitors from other countries.

Airfoilsguy wrote:Correct me if I am wrong but I think he means competitors from other countries.

That could be, but the question remains, who is going to pay to develop and build a serious competitor so that this competition can go forward?

Airfoilsguy wrote:Correct me if I am wrong but I think he means competitors from other countries.

Not even necessary from other countries altough the Typhoon and rafale also could have been considered, together with the newest Superhornets ans silent eagles.
Nobody is saying here that a new platform should be developped just to suit the needs of the RCAF.

The idea that the JSF is in a league of its own for what the RCAF will be using it for is just not correct, only LM would claim so.
Not even considering other options is just foolish from a customer point of view, certainly with so many viable options on the market.

Arniepie wrote:

Airfoilsguy wrote:Correct me if I am wrong but I think he means competitors from other countries.

Not even necessary from other countries altough the Typhoon and rafale also could have been considered, together with the newest Superhornets ans silent eagles.
Nobody is saying here that a new platform should be developped just to suit the needs of the RCAF.

The idea that the JSF is in a league of its own for what the RCAF will be using it for is just not correct, only LM would claim so.
Not even considering other options is just foolish from a customer point of view, certainly with so many viable options on the market.

Arnie makes a fair point. If Canada decides it doesn't need the very latest aircraft, the Eagle, Hornet and Eurofighter could have been considered.