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The Never Ending BER Thread

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Zak (netAirspace FAA) 17 Aug 12, 10:37Post
JLAmber wrote:That's the impression I get from the various articles on the matter. The other possibility is that AB could use the situation to appeal for a bail-out/compensation and limp on for that bit longer, which is no good for anybody, particularly (as Zak points out) the German taxpayer.

Well, I do believe that the BER delay causes them serious problems. Still, of course, they will certainly play that card when they see it fit.

JLAmber wrote:If/when AB do succumb to their troubles, what sort of hole will that leave in BER as a viable airport in world terms? AB seem to have an awful lot of routes due to fly from BER, and losing them looks like it would leave substantial gaps in services from the airport.

It may well have a domino effect. With AB joining oneworld and introducing lots of new routes from BER, they would turn the airport into a oneworld hub. That was one of the reasons why LH and other carriers, contrary to earlier plans, now also planned more routes, in order not to give OW too much presence in BER.

If AB would be removed from the equation, LH and other carriers would certainly pick up a few routes, but without the pressure of a possible rival alliance hub being set up there, BER would certainly play a much smaller role in their strategic planning.
Ideology: The mistaken belief that your beliefs are neither beliefs nor mistaken.
Richie D. 19 Aug 12, 10:27Post
Zak wrote:
Thorben wrote:the politicians overseeing it certainly have neither the education, nor the experience, nor the general management skills for their jobs as board members

That is a general problem with major public construction projects these days.

The projects are usually ambitious - BER airport, Hamburg's Elbphilharmonie, Stuttgart 21. Politicians can't think small, they are keen on prestigious projects.
There was recently a report in the Tagesthemen on the subject, how politicians screw up major projects titled "Wie Politiker Großprojekte in den Sand setzen".

It is also one of those very rare occasions where I have to agree with an FDP politician. Rainer Brüderle said that WoWi is making a mockery out of Berlin in the eyes of the world with this fiasco, and I believe in this case, he's absolutely right.
Zak wrote:But one thing is always a given - in the end, the tax payer is screwed.
I believe the proper word in those cases is "fucked".
Nothing is more important than your health ... except for your money. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 23
HT-ETNW 04 Sep 12, 09:57Post
Digging up this thread, as a new date is announced: 27-OCT-2013 !

source in German language: http://www.aero.de/news/Neuer-Berliner- ... ffnen.html

TXL and SXF then are to close the day before, on 26-OCT-2013.

So, this then gives the opportunity to hold another Meeting in Berlin in Summer 2013, spotting at both TXL and SXF.
-HT
Use your time wisely; remember that today is the first day of the rest of your life.
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 04 Sep 12, 10:16Post
HT-ETNW wrote:So, this then gives the opportunity to hold another Meeting in Berlin in Summer 2013, spotting at both TXL and SXF.

And I would not bet against another such meeting being possible in summer 2014 as well... :))
Ideology: The mistaken belief that your beliefs are neither beliefs nor mistaken.
airtrainer 04 Sep 12, 12:32Post
HT-ETNW wrote:Digging up this thread, as a new date is announced: 27-OCT-2013 !
So, this then gives the opportunity to hold another Meeting in Berlin in Summer 2013, spotting at both TXL and SXF.
-HT

27 oct ! Woww, that's a delay... Oh wait, where's my schedule ? :))
Grounded...
ShanwickOceanic (netAirspace FAA) 28 Dec 12, 19:12Post
Righteous bump.

Zak wrote:
HT-ETNW wrote:So, this then gives the opportunity to hold another Meeting in Berlin in Summer 2013, spotting at both TXL and SXF.

And I would not bet against another such meeting being possible in summer 2014 as well... :))

You may well be right {facepalm} It seems that October 2013 was too optimistic. "Sometime in 2014", according to this article:

http://www.frequentbusinesstraveler.com ... d-to-2014/

If the fire safety systems still aren't working, that should make it easier to raze the damn thing to the ground and start again {mischief}
My friend and I applied for airline jobs in Australia, but they didn't Qantas.
AndesSMF (Founding Member) 28 Dec 12, 21:54Post
Can't say I'm surprised. A lot of these may boil down to 'wiring issues', and we all know how painful those can be.
Einstein said two things were infinite; the universe, and stupidity. He wasn't sure about the first, but he was certain about the second.
PlymSpotter (Photo Quality Screener & Founding Member) 30 Dec 12, 03:25Post
I had a chat recently with someone working on the BER project. Apparently it's a total failure to integrate systems, meaning they have practically got to start from scratch with some software architecture. It seems to be a top down failure - everybody thought integrating with everything else was somebody else's problem.

The new Doha airport has similar issues. One example sited was that they spent a small fortune, even by Qatari standards, on converting the local UK/European type power supply to a 120v US type power supply for the terminal and buildings. But pretty much ever other supplier specified with 240v, meaning more expense converting it back again and replacing already installed materials. Plus it was ordered for everything electrical to be installed before the building was fully climate-proof, meaning 90% of electrical items suffered humidity related failures. There's apparently been a similar cock up with all other power supplies for things like ground lighting with voltages being wrong - total cost to rectify is supposedly over $1 billion.
ShanwickOceanic (netAirspace FAA) 30 Dec 12, 03:54Post
PlymSpotter wrote:I had a chat recently with someone working on the BER project. Apparently it's a total failure to integrate systems, meaning they have practically got to start from scratch with some software architecture. It seems to be a top down failure - everybody thought integrating with everything else was somebody else's problem.

I've been sent on several project management courses, I even have a piece of paper with PRINCE2 on it somewhere so I are experts. I ask the same question every time: "What in this process protects my project from the one blindingly obvious thing I simply forgot?" I've never yet had a good answer...

Still, it all makes work for the working man to do...

PlymSpotter wrote:The new Doha airport has similar issues [...] total cost to rectify is supposedly over $1 billion.

There's a reason why it has that IATA code :))
My friend and I applied for airline jobs in Australia, but they didn't Qantas.
fiatstilojtd 06 Jan 13, 19:48Post
It seems that 2014 or even 2015 will be more likely/more realistic every day.

In German only sorry:

http://www.focus.de/finanzen/news/massi ... 92674.html
Non vitae sed scholae discimus
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 07 Jan 13, 09:02Post
It's not often that I agree with the Green Party, especially not with Mr. Trittin. But I have to agree with him when he called Berlin's mayor and BER CEO Wowereit an "incompetent Bratwurst" last night...
Ideology: The mistaken belief that your beliefs are neither beliefs nor mistaken.
halls120 (Plank Owner) 07 Jan 13, 13:08Post
Zak wrote:It's not often that I agree with the Green Party, especially not with Mr. Trittin. But I have to agree with him when he called Berlin's mayor and BER CEO Wowereit an "incompetent Bratwurst" last night...


So, has anyone lost their job over this massive F up?
At home in the PNW and loving it
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 07 Jan 13, 14:51Post
halls120 wrote:So, has anyone lost their job over this massive F up?

A few pawns have been sacrificed. But the calls for Mr. Wowereit to step down are growing louder now.
Ideology: The mistaken belief that your beliefs are neither beliefs nor mistaken.
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 07 Jan 13, 16:28Post
And just as I typed above post, Wowereit stepped down as chairman of the board at the BER project group.

Not as BER mayor yet, but we will see about that.

BER CEO Rainer Schwarz has to go as well.
Ideology: The mistaken belief that your beliefs are neither beliefs nor mistaken.
AndesSMF (Founding Member) 07 Jan 13, 17:00Post
Zak wrote:Not as BER mayor yet, but we will see about that.

We can safely assume that the losses will hit the $1 Billion mark. His political career is probably over.
Einstein said two things were infinite; the universe, and stupidity. He wasn't sure about the first, but he was certain about the second.
fiatstilojtd 07 Jan 13, 17:16Post
Maybe that is mean {mischief} but the only good thing with this BER desaster is that now the huge desaster with the Vienna Skylink ahem sorry of course Check-In 3 (they renamed it in the last second due to the PR-Desaster) in comparison does not look so bad anymore. Mind you they still have about 400 Million EUR loss in Vienna with a single Terminal.
Non vitae sed scholae discimus
Richie D. 07 Jan 13, 20:28Post
Mr Wowereit should have also resigned as mayor as well, and so should have Mr Platzeck as state premier of Brandenburg. But instead of truely facing responsibility, WoWi sticks around in the board while just delegating the full responsibility to his colleague and fellow SPD party member Matze Platzeck.

But in the end, more and even more (federal) tax payer money will be pumped into this project, so that it can open some day. We pay for the incompetence of our politicians, no matter which party. {mad}
Nothing is more important than your health ... except for your money. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 23
GQfluffy (Database Editor & Founding Member) 07 Jan 13, 20:33Post
Honestly though, this isn't just the incompetence of your politicians...this stems all the way down to the lowly drafter drawing up the plans the architects and engineers handed them.
Teller of no, fixer of everything, friend of the unimportant and all around good guy; the CAD Monkey
AndesSMF (Founding Member) 07 Jan 13, 21:00Post
GQfluffy wrote:Honestly though, this isn't just the incompetence of your politicians...this stems all the way down to the lowly drafter drawing up the plans the architects and engineers handed them.

I think you and I may have a grasp of how screwed up this whole thing may be. For this type of delay, there could be a whole missing system. Maybe the fire fans were not installed, or someone forgot to call the fire alarm installer, or the architect neglected to have a fire sprinkler system engineered.

These examples have all happened before...
Einstein said two things were infinite; the universe, and stupidity. He wasn't sure about the first, but he was certain about the second.
GQfluffy (Database Editor & Founding Member) 07 Jan 13, 21:24Post
And sometimes (probably more often than not) the lowest guy on the totem pole spots the issue but is afraid they'll be punished (I've been there and have done both; bring up the issue and ignore the issue) so they're put in a position that could delay things for months costing huge sums of money...

However, if someone would've caught it (or spoken up) in the design phase...

And I'm just speculating but...
Teller of no, fixer of everything, friend of the unimportant and all around good guy; the CAD Monkey
AndesSMF (Founding Member) 07 Jan 13, 21:52Post
GQfluffy wrote:And sometimes (probably more often than not) the lowest guy on the totem pole spots the issue but is afraid they'll be punished (I've been there and have done both; bring up the issue and ignore the issue) so they're put in a position that could delay things for months costing huge sums of money...

That too, and often even when the information is given to the right person, no action is taken. Or even then, maybe it was a software integration failure, where even the use of 3D software was mishandled and the assumption of coordination was not really there.
Einstein said two things were infinite; the universe, and stupidity. He wasn't sure about the first, but he was certain about the second.
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 08 Jan 13, 11:32Post
Interesting statements by Horst Amann, who took over as technical director at BER in August 2012, after SHTF.

Today, he said (translation by me):

Unfortunately, going by the facts we have now - which we had to uncover arduously over the last months - the problems we are facing are severe - very, very severe. So severe, almost nightmarish, that we had to take the measures we took now (i.e. cancelling the plans to open the airport in October 2013).

We had to pull the ripcord. I just hope we didn't pull it too late.

Amann said that it does not make sense to speculate about a new opening date at this point, even though he expected 2014 to be doable.

Still, they would now need to set up a new project plan and coordinate it with the involved authorities. This would take about 6 months. Only then, they could estimate a new opening date.

I can't say I envy that man for his job right now...
Ideology: The mistaken belief that your beliefs are neither beliefs nor mistaken.
miamiair (netAirspace FAA) 08 Jan 13, 11:37Post
Zak wrote:I can't say I envy that man for his job right now...


Look at it as a challenge.
And let's get one thing straight. There's a big difference between a pilot and an aviator. One is a technician; the other is an artist in love with flight. — E. B. Jeppesen
Zak (netAirspace FAA) 08 Jan 13, 11:41Post
Just like being appointed as captain of the Titanic, 10 minutes after it hit the iceberg...
Ideology: The mistaken belief that your beliefs are neither beliefs nor mistaken.
miamiair (netAirspace FAA) 08 Jan 13, 11:49Post
Zak wrote:Just like being appointed as captain of the Titanic, 10 minutes after it hit the iceberg...


Lives aren't at stake. Seriously, as screwed up as the situation is, it needs somebody that can rise to the challenge, or do you want another hack taking the reins and do nothing but cry into his cereal?

If the way things are going in the US, it would be sad for the people that defrauded the citizenry, to get away with theft. And escape prosecution.
And let's get one thing straight. There's a big difference between a pilot and an aviator. One is a technician; the other is an artist in love with flight. — E. B. Jeppesen
 

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