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Time To Re-Regulate Airline Schedules?

All about Airlines and Airliners.
 

DXing 28 Jun 22, 23:44Post
Is it time to resurrect a form of the old civil aeronautics board? Given the almost daily litany of severely delayed and/or canceled flights across airlines, and the growing number of days where one or more airlines have to cancel hundreds of flights to avoid a total meltdown of their respective services, does re-instituting an agency, or a department within an agency, to regulate service make sense?

It appears that the pilot shortage, which seems to be a major contributing factor to many cancelations, isn't going away anytime soon. Airlines are either in the process, or beginning to think seriously about, instituting their own aviation academies but no matter how fast they cycle them up it will be quite a while before enough qualified candidates are in place to make up for the substantial retirements all airlines are experiencing today.

It's no secret I retired from United Airlines 2 years ago at the end of this month. Part of my retirement package was a continuation of my flight benefits. I've tried several times in the past few months to travel using those benefits and have been stymied as many times as I have been successful. The aircraft are just plain full. Not only full, but oversold in a number of cases. I'm not complaining. I appreciate the fact that's good for the airline and my fellow coworkers who are still striving to do their best everyday, even if their work days are that much more stressful.
But if you are a family trying to take a vacation, and your flight is delayed or canceled and leaves you stranded, you have to wonder how that factors into their next vacation. If you're a business person heading out for an important meet and greet and are delayed or the flight is canceled, again you have to wonder how that affects their travel decisions going forward.

It might be wise for the government to step in, since they had a hand in creating this situation, and start regulating service as the old CAB used to do. That way airlines can concentrate on serving those markets they earn the right to service well, as opposed to half ass. Put a sunset provision in any law or regulation whereby the government has to justify continuing regulation 10 or 15 years down range. If technology has increased to the point single pilot ops are feasible, or there are enough pilots in service and in the pipeline that a shortage has been alleviated, the market can deregulate again.

I'm not a fan of government regulation but this situation we find ourselves in is not going away anytime soon and needs addressing. The airlines aren't going to voluntarily reduce their service between certain marquee destinations, and it seems to be happening at the expense of smaller markets that still need service. I'm open to other ideas, but in this situation, I can't see any agreements between the airlines themselves sticking or not being seen as collusion/price fixing. Thoughts?
What's the point of an open door policy if inside the open door sits a closed mind?
miamiair (netAirspace FAA) 29 Jun 22, 10:46Post
Bringing the government in is never a good idea.

The airline industry sucks for passengers. Loyalty programs are crap. Unfortunately, airline crews are invaded by the wokeness and everyone wants to push an agenda.

Re-regulate won't fix any of that.
And let's get one thing straight. There's a big difference between a pilot and an aviator. One is a technician; the other is an artist in love with flight. — E. B. Jeppesen
ShanwickOceanic (netAirspace FAA) 29 Jun 22, 11:32Post
miamiair wrote:Bringing the government in is never a good idea.

Depends what you mean by bringing the government in.

Airlines suddenly got really good at not holding people hostage on a taxiway for hours when they realised it was going to cost them dearly. Over here, the looming spectre of EU261 compensation seems to focus minds wonderfully (even if the bastards do occasionally push back at +2:59 and then spend 15 minutes on the taxiway looking for a bag to offload - looking at you, AY).

But meddling in routes and schedules, beyond the likes of EAS, smells like the bad old days to me.
My friend and I applied for airline jobs in Australia, but they didn't Qantas.
miamiair (netAirspace FAA) 29 Jun 22, 12:54Post
I agree with you on the delay compensation, but that is something relatively simple.

If you let them in on schedules and routes, what's next? Seat width? Seat pitch? Uniforms? Authorized MROs? It can get slippery real quick.
And let's get one thing straight. There's a big difference between a pilot and an aviator. One is a technician; the other is an artist in love with flight. — E. B. Jeppesen
ANCFlyer (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 29 Jun 22, 14:20Post
No.

Hell No.

I don't wanna be told I have to fly Frontier or Southwest or Shitbag Spirit to get from point A to Point C with a stop at shitbag airport Point B just to get somewhere.

I'm sticking a) with the majors, AA, AS, UA, HA, DL (sorry, Frontier, Southwest and Spirit it don't cut it) and b) because I don't fly Y and those asstards don't have a real cabin (what they do have is the bare feet propped up on the bulkhead, haven't showered in a week, POSs, too cheap to fly a real airline), because some gov't regulator said so.

Call me a prude, call me an asshole (been called all of the above) my decision isn't going to change. I'd rather take an Amish carriage from PIT to PHL than hop on one of this low-rent flights.
LET'S GO BRANDON!!!!
DXing 29 Jun 22, 17:43Post
miamiair wrote:

If you let them in on schedules and routes, what's next? Seat width? Seat pitch? Uniforms? Authorized MROs? It can get slippery real quick.


They can do all of that right now if they so choose too. If it makes the airline up their game or face losing the route..who wins? I can't count the amount of times that here as well as elsewhere I've read one person after another lamenting the decline of service since the "golden era". That golden era was heavily regulated.

ANCflyer wrote:I don't wanna be told I have to fly Frontier or Southwest or Shitbag Spirit to get from point A to Point C with a stop at shitbag airport Point B just to get somewhere.


Even in the regulated days there were almost always multiple choices to be had. We flew TWA CLE to JFK when I was a kid but could have as easily done it on Eastern.

Part if the problem I saw with the CO/UA merger was the clash of cultures. CO had been through 2 bankruptcies and learned the hard way how to provide solid customer service at all levels while UA still had a large contingent of "regulation days" mindset where an airline was a golden goose that laid a golden egg every month. Those would be the bad old days to return too but having an airline, and its management as well as employees earn the right to a route may not be such a bad thing till there are enough pilots to make opening up the route structure without compromising basic service plausible. Hence the importance of sunset rules with solid numerical provisions.

At least in the regulated days an airline had to prove there was a need, that they could service the route consistently, which meant charging an appropriate price for the service rendered and not trying to undercut your competition to the point they had to pull out, then recouping your losses by jacking the fares well above what what was necessary, or correct, for the service rendered.

Those things are what made the airlines competitive in service. Were tickets more expensive, you betcha, but what you didn't have were....

ANCflyer wrote:bare feet propped up on the bulkhead, haven't showered in a week, POSs, too cheap to fly a real airline


Those people either drove, rode the bus, or took the train.
What's the point of an open door policy if inside the open door sits a closed mind?
Lucas (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 30 Jun 22, 14:11Post
The extra expense from the added bureaucracy won't likely come to fruition for some old timers, but for my young family and I, it's the fruit of the poison tree, and we do not want to be forced to eat it.

Our futures already look awful. Please enjoy retirement without saddling us with yet more future burdens.
captoveur 30 Jun 22, 14:41Post
I see this ending with a single national airline run by the government.. Amtrak of the air.
I like my coffee how I like my women: Black, bitter, and preferably fair trade.
DXing 30 Jun 22, 17:26Post
Lucas wrote:but for my young family


So you are OK with showing up at the airport to find that there's an hour long line to get through security...once through the gauntlet you find your inbound aircraft is delayed due to crew issues, due it it's being late your flight is delayed even further because they missed their slot through an ATC FCA put up because too many aircraft are trying to fly through too small an airspace with too few controllers. And through all that, the chance of cancellation goes up with each further delay. You're saying you're good with that?
What's the point of an open door policy if inside the open door sits a closed mind?
paul mcallister 30 Jun 22, 19:45Post
I was not aware of such a thing as this. Perhaps here in UK it was never introduced, I really don`t know.
Certainly something needs to be done with the aviation industry in some degree of chaos.
Due to furlough etc, highly experienced staff have left and maybe got jobs doing something different, these people cannot be replaced overnight.

Lack of capacity seems to be the main issue, probably because the world and their granny want to get away somewhere after nearly 3 years of lockdowns.
Everyone wants to travel at once, and that`s never going to work.

I am not sure government can do much to fix this--the world fuel crisis is being blamed on the war in Ukraine-I am not buying into that at all.
Do not get me wrong, I am not defending Putin and his murderous regime, nor am I happy at the site of millions displaced, and the needless slaughter of the innocent.

To me it`s obvious the worlds richer governments are short on cash, and they are raising fuel duty hand over fist to trawl back funds.
They know we all use fuel, be it diesel, petrol, gas or whatever, the cost of a barrel of crude oil has been fairly constant, yet the prices are going up almost daily.

Some would suggest this is a policy the governments have concocted to force us all to use electric vehicles, but I am drifting off topic.

If our governments can do anything to improve the situation then fair enough, but I think the crisis is just going to have to run it`s course, demand will level out and return to normal at some point.
paul mcallister 30 Jun 22, 19:54Post
ANCFlyer wrote:No.

Hell No.

I don't wanna be told I have to fly Frontier or Southwest or Shitbag Spirit to get from point A to Point C with a stop at shitbag airport Point B just to get somewhere.

I'm sticking a) with the majors, AA, AS, UA, HA, DL (sorry, Frontier, Southwest and Spirit it don't cut it) and b) because I don't fly Y and those asstards don't have a real cabin (what they do have is the bare feet propped up on the bulkhead, haven't showered in a week, POSs, too cheap to fly a real airline), because some gov't regulator said so.

Call me a prude, call me an asshole (been called all of the above) my decision isn't going to change. I'd rather take an Amish carriage from PIT to PHL than hop on one of this low-rent flights.


Great reply, I almost split my coffee, I hate budget airlines and their " like it or lump it " attitude.
We are people, human beings, and deserve to have a reasonable amount of personal space, and not be crammed into tiny seats, arse cheek to arse cheek with total strangers, and as for the toilets ? How do they get away with it?
These tiny little rooms where your shoulders touch the sides unless your a child.

I would rather pay more and not be treated like a gormless sardine.
ShanwickOceanic (netAirspace FAA) 30 Jun 22, 20:15Post
paul mcallister wrote:the cost of a barrel of crude oil has been fairly constant

Yes, if by "fairly constant" you mean $70 at the start of the year and $120 now.

brent.png
brent.png (29.51 KiB) Viewed 1378 times


https://oilprice.com/oil-price-charts/
My friend and I applied for airline jobs in Australia, but they didn't Qantas.
paul mcallister 30 Jun 22, 22:59Post
Ok, fair cop I got that wrong.
To be honest I don`t follow the price of a barrel of crude oil that closely LOL

In any case the OPEC countries could increase production and bring prices down, but that`s not in their interest-they want to make as much as they can.
I am glad I still have my LPG car, £0.70 per litre, but don`t tell anyone.
DXing 01 Jul 22, 02:10Post
Actually, not. French President Macron was caught on mic telling U.S. President Biden that he had spoken to the UAE and they said they were at capacity and relayed that the Saudis were very close to max production. So help from OPEC may not be forthcoming for production reasons vs. economic ones.

https://www.newsweek.com/biden-interrupted-macron-g7-told-saudis-oil-capacity-limit-1719747
What's the point of an open door policy if inside the open door sits a closed mind?
Paul Chandler1 01 Jul 22, 18:03Post
paul mcallister wrote:I was not aware of such a thing as this. Perhaps here in UK it was never introduced, I really don`t know.
Certainly something needs to be done with the aviation industry in some degree of chaos.
Due to furlough etc, highly experienced staff have left and maybe got jobs doing something different, these people cannot be replaced overnight.

Lack of capacity seems to be the main issue, probably because the world and their granny want to get away somewhere after nearly 3 years of lockdowns.
Everyone wants to travel at once, and that`s never going to work.

I am not sure government can do much to fix this--the world fuel crisis is being blamed on the war in Ukraine-I am not buying into that at all.
Do not get me wrong, I am not defending Putin and his murderous regime, nor am I happy at the site of millions displaced, and the needless slaughter of the innocent.

To me it`s obvious the worlds richer governments are short on cash, and they are raising fuel duty hand over fist to trawl back funds.
They know we all use fuel, be it diesel, petrol, gas or whatever, the cost of a barrel of crude oil has been fairly constant, yet the prices are going up almost daily.

Some would suggest this is a policy the governments have concocted to force us all to use electric vehicles, but I am drifting off topic.

If our governments can do anything to improve the situation then fair enough, but I think the crisis is just going to have to run it`s course, demand will level out and return to normal at some point.


Another factor is that the T&C's being offered now are probably worse than when staff were let go. Staff are the biggest asset a company has and treat them badly it will bite you at some point. I suspect some airline staff having been treated badly by companies are not keen to return to such an environment and under worse T&C's
ANCFlyer (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 01 Jul 22, 20:24Post
DXing wrote:
ANCflyer wrote:bare feet propped up on the bulkhead, haven't showered in a week, POSs, too cheap to fly a real airline


Those people either drove, rode the bus, or took the train.


Pure bullshit. Seen it on AS and AA (not in F of course) so either you don't pay attention or you just fail to acknowledge it happens.
LET'S GO BRANDON!!!!
DXing 01 Jul 22, 23:01Post
Pre-deregulation in 1978? Flew several times a year 69-81. Never saw it pre-deregulation. Saw it the first time when I got back into commercial flying in 1999. Prior to deregulation people smoked on planes...that dwarfed any smelly feet.
What's the point of an open door policy if inside the open door sits a closed mind?
CO777ER (Database Editor & Founding Member) 02 Jul 22, 01:22Post
ANCFlyer wrote:
DXing wrote:
ANCflyer wrote:bare feet propped up on the bulkhead, haven't showered in a week, POSs, too cheap to fly a real airline


Those people either drove, rode the bus, or took the train.


Pure bullshit. Seen it on AS and AA (not in F of course) so either you don't pay attention or you just fail to acknowledge it happens.

The former road warriors, turned Spirit flyers are now on every mainline carrier offering Basic Economy.
DXing 02 Jul 22, 11:35Post
Absolutely. I don't disagree it happens on flights nowadays. My observation was from pre-deregulation. Back then there wasn't any basic economy. There weren't any nationwide ULCC's.

That would actually be one of the benefits of re-regulation. Airlines like Spirit, Frontier and other ULCC's are going to find it rough going in the not-too-distant future re-regulation or not. The pilots are truly going to be in the cat bird seat for the next few years. No longer a dime a dozen, they are going to be able to get a premium in the next contract rounds. Just a look at the overtime and bonus pay that some of the majors are offering their pilots to fly the maximum this month alone. Airlines that can't pay up are going to find the junior pilots jumping ship. The ULCC's are going to find it necessary to either change their pricing or cut back on markets for lack of crew to fly there. Unfortunately, what we are seeing now seems to be airlines are reluctant to give up market share and would rather selectively delay or cancel flights. That's no good for either the passenger or the long-term reputation of the airlines.

Just another reason for taking some control of the situation now before it starts to spiral out of control.

Another problem is Air Traffic Control. I'm seeing way more programs, required routes, and flow constrained areas these days than ever before and many times its due to staffing. They just can't handle the volume of flights with the personal they have left. That problem has been growing since before covid struck.

It's funny because before covid the Feds were talking about NextGen air traffic control. More automation, closer seperation limits, forget about airways just fly where you want, GPS WAAS approaches that would allow for aircraft to approach an airport without having to follow a strict procedure. Guess we will still be waiting for Buck Rogers to be born for all that to happen. In the meantime, still too many planes for too few controllers. Re-regulation solves that problem too as it limits the number of flights between cities. Gives ATC a chance to restaff and more importantly, correctly train new controllers.

None of the regulation has to be permenant. Before it's implemented a numerical sunset provision is added. When ATC reaches a preset level of staffing, and when airlines can show they have the correct number of pilots flying the line, or pilot candidates in the pipeline, regulations are eased till they are gone.

Are some airlines going to fail? Sure, but better that they fail with some control rather than the always troubling downward spiral that leads to a bad accident or a midnight shutdown stranding thousands of passengers.
What's the point of an open door policy if inside the open door sits a closed mind?
PA110 (Founding Member) 22 Jul 22, 04:38Post
Today's race to the bottom by airline bean counters is coming back to bite them in the behind.

Employees are still treated as a cost for the most part. They've eliminated check-in and gate agents in favor of "do it yourself" apps and kiosks.

I just read where a Dutch company BAGTAG is making digital bag tags where you can check your bag using your smart phone before even leaving home. You then simply drop it at the airport without having to print a paper tag.

The race to lay off workers as if they were simply disposable has come back to haunt the entire aviation sector, mostly airports, where handling companies who paid minimum wage and dubious benefits can't get those workers back.

Airlines need to reinvest in their own teams and stop outsourcing.

No amount of government intervention will help shy of getting ATC working better.
Look, it's been swell, but the swelling's gone down.
Lucas (netAirspace ATC & Founding Member) 27 Jul 22, 00:22Post
PA110 wrote:
No amount of government intervention will help shy of getting ATC working better.


Many ATC facs get screwed by the gov daily. It's been regression after regression at my fac.
 

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